What's the reasoning behind Zyra's changes in PBE?

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Jarvan Krislov

Senior Member

10-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Oh, the range tweak is likely needed overall, even for mid. We can likely add power into plants if we shorten her kill range overall. I missed that point, sorry!

There is some compensation for that primarily for mid Zyra inc in 3.13 on that too, last I checked.
W now gives 2/4/6/8/10% CDR (instead of 4/8/12/16/20%)
This was always a really "nice" thing about Zyra (building Athene's maxed out your CDR), but I agree that this basically gets Zyra ahead of other supports for free, so this is more of a nerf to her supporting ability instead of her carry ability. I'm ok with this.


Q ranged decreased to 800 (from 825)
W ranged increase to 850 (from 825)
WHAT!?!?! This completely breaks the synergy with QW. I agree that her strength has always been her range (and you are trying to nerf this), but increasing the range of W (to compensate?!?!) just doesn't make any sense to me. If anything it buffs her brush-checking with W (i.e. a buff to both mage Zyra and support Zyra), but it feels like more of a buff to support Zyra for two reasons:

1. Supports are generally expected to carry most of the burden of warding, supports therefore need to check brushes more often, being able to check from further away improves this ability.
2. Won't this actually create a small delay between W-Q, or create cases where your Q won't won't create a plant due to not being in range? This will make Zyra more clunky as a spellcaster, and possible ruin her combos from time-to-time. Didn't Diana have this problem a year ago when (after much-needed nerfs) you could hit an opponent with Q but be unable to jump to them because her R range was shortened to less of Q's range?

TL,DR: Overall, it seems like these changes are more geared towards nerfing mid Zyra and support Zyra, when she is currently in a bad (although viable) spot in mid, and she is quite strong at support at the moment.

-I have played over 130 ranked games with Zyra. Season 2 she was my go-to mid, Season 3 she was my go-to support. Riot pls!

Edit: Whoa! Was not expecting a Red post. Thank you CertainlyT for giving some insight into these changes. I really look forward towards playing my favorite mid again


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Ginga

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Senior Member

10-10-2013

hmm...how come it looks like they just buffed support zyra while nerfing ap mid?

Quote:
so this is more of a nerf to her supporting ability instead of her carry ability. I'm ok with this.
Actually that's also a pretty massive nerf to AP Carry Zyra...



One thing that worries me is the lack of compensation going on here. Will she get more hp/armor/mr? Morello said more power will be shifted to her plants, but I'm not seeing it.




Also TC, get ready to receive all the downvotes from every single bot player ever.


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Jarvan Krislov

Senior Member

10-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginga View Post

Actually that's also a pretty massive nerf to AP Carry Zyra...
I have to disagree.
1. 10% CDR can easily be made up with a Blue Elixir, which you buy anyways on mid Zyra, particularly when you have 5-6 items. Supports usually can't afford/don't buy Blue Elixir due to being relied upon for most of the warding, so decreasing her passive CDR is hurting supports here.

2. W is maxed last on both support and mid Zyra, so you only have a 2% CDR difference in terms of DPS until level 14, which is fairly negligible.


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TootlesTheGoon

Senior Member

10-10-2013

I gotta be blunt:
20% CDR is a HELL OF A LOT for free stats.


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Mokkun

Senior Member

10-10-2013

While it breaks the synergy between Q-W, it helps with W-E which already has a discrepancy.

This makes an interesting nerf. Biggest thing I'll notice as a support is that I'd gotten into the tendency of maxing W before Q much of the time because I only used Q for the plant type, and was maxing E for the root. I may have to reevaluate that. Maybe.

I still consider her functional range to be her E range, so as long as that stays the same, I don't really care.

Yes the auto ranged nerf effects her, but honestly, other supports get along just fine with a standard 550.

These are much less significant nerfs than I was afraid were coming down the pipe.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

10-11-2013
1 of 1 Riot Posts

Hey everybody -- Here is some additional context on the proposed changes. I'll just bullet point it:

• Q and E both spawn seeds placed at the moment of detonation more reliably. This is especially in the presence of latency -- something our pros play without but you play with. Ever notice that you combo and are left with a seed on the ground after? That is largely resolved.

• E spawns Vine Lashers in a wider band around it, allowing you to create more effective zoning walls with good mouse movement or pre-placement of seeds.

• R hastens plants grown after it has been placed, allowing you to ult at a position in an emergency and then turn the fight around and unload on your opponent(s) if they fail to escape.

• Deadly Bloom at 800 range and Rampant Growth at 850 allows you to place seeds in the outer portion of the ring created by max range Deadly Blooms. Combined with the reliability changes above, you can now more effectively cast Q or E, wait a moment to see which way the enemy moves, and create a plant at the edge of the spell closest to them. These optimizations are really satisfying and embody the gameplay I intended on release. Overall, her playmaking potential has gone up to compensate for her raw numerical power going down.

• It’s not on PBE yet, but I plan on improving the self-only indicators of who your plant is targeting (the triangle with downward arrow above enemies’ heads) facilitating finer plant micro-management using your basic attack.

• 10% CDR is worth 322 gold. If you maxed W last, the CDR nerf is roughly the gold equivalent of losing 3 AP at level 2, 6 AP at level 14, and 0.75 of an Amp Tome at level 18. Common mid builds overcapped CDR by a hefty margin making the effective cost even less. The change was long overdue given season 3's improved access to cooldown reduction.

• Reduced plant base damage at early levels is focused on Zyra's power as a duo laner. She levels much more slowly and leans more heavily on base damage from the support position.

• The duration of Stranglethorns' stun on live was never intended to be this length. She still retains a gigantic amount of CC, even for a control mage. Even after these changes, she still brings 3 seconds of AOE immobilization/stun to set up further crowd control, such as Vine Lashers.

• The small reduction in Q base damage is mostly targeted at competitive support Zyra – they take Q first and harass their opponents out of lane, since it is nearly unavoidable if you cast it when the enemy AD begins a last hit. It’s also the change in which I have the least confidence, so keep tabs on this one.

• I am not interested in "compensation," only in giving all Zyra players more opportunities to distinguish themselves, because I think Zyra is also too strong as a mid laner. That she is still highly successful in that slot in an assassin-filled meta-game (her natural counter) speaks for itself. The fact that LCS teams generally choose to run her bot lane doesn't make her mid lane case immune from balance considerations. If you enjoy Zyra enough to take advantage of the gains this patch provides, you'll still find great success in mid..

Discuss away!


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Has

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Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
• 10% CDR is worth 322 gold. If you maxed W last, the CDR nerf is roughly the gold equivalent of losing 3 AP at level 2, 6 AP at level 14, and 0.75 of an Amp Tome at level 18. Common mid builds overcapped CDR by a hefty margin making the effective cost even less. The change was long overdue given season 3's improved access to cooldown reduction.
Weren't her cooldowns balanced around the expected 20% from her passive? I mean it's very different than a champion without passive cooldown reduction, as all cooldowns are unique to the champion.


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Tsunami Chaser

Senior Member

10-11-2013

CertainlyT I love you :3.

Add me please :3.










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OMG halp meh plz

Senior Member

10-11-2013

you reduced Q base damage because too much burst, but you also reduced early game plant damage, PLUS you reduced the CDR, preventing plant spam.

That leaves Zyra with nothing early game and everything late game. Considering that she's not a hypercarry, I don't think you guys thought this out well enough.


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No Pawns Dawns

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Senior Member

10-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMG halp meh plz View Post
you reduced Q base damage because too much burst, but you also reduced early game plant damage, PLUS you reduced the CDR, preventing plant spam.

That leaves Zyra with nothing early game and everything late game. Considering that she's not a hypercarry, I don't think you guys thought this out well enough.
This. I see no way of her surviving the laning phase against any competent assassin now. Literally every part of her early laning phase has been nerfed, significantly.


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