@Riot: Why did you revert Kat to being overdependent on her ultimate?

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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Pwyff mate let me help you out here.

Lets look at level 6. Here, the base damage is the same, but the ratios have been increased by 25%. Clearly, over a full ult, you will do more damage. Period. Over an interrupted ult however, we need to have at look at the cut off point.

I've done the maths and the cross over point is at 1.5 seconds from Go. Assuming 50 AP, 0 Bonus AD, we get this graph.

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If someone hasn't interrupted you in the first 1.5 seconds through, you're likely to get the whole thing off, so the new ult is the same, or a bit better.

Lets check at level 16 with 400 AP and 60 bonus AD.

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Oh look, the new ult is always better.

tl;dr: kat is as ult dependant as before, but the ult is better.


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Timid Gengar

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
You'll see this in the patch notes but we actually removed the initial cast delay of Death Lotus (it used to be 0.25 so it's now 0). With the increased ratios and higher base values at higher levels, even with the increased channel time I think Kat does the same or higher overall damage even if interrupted super early but now does even more damage (like... a lot more) if she's allowed her full channel.

Food for thought!
That's cool in all but after the 1st nerfs she didn't need anymore it was kind of over kill


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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

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09-30-2013
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNsNASmurf View Post
Pwyff mate let me help you out here.

Lets look at level 6. Here, the base damage is the same, but the ratios have been increased by 25%. Clearly, over a full ult, you will do more damage. Period. Over an interrupted ult however, we need to have at look at the cut off point.

I've done the maths and the cross over point is at 1.5 seconds from Go. Assuming 50 AP, 0 Bonus AD, we get this graph.

Attachment 791543

If someone hasn't interrupted you in the first 1.5 seconds through, you're likely to get the whole thing off, so the new ult is the same, or a bit better.

Lets check at level 16 with 400 AD and 60 bonus AD.

Attachment 791545

Oh look, the new ult is always better.

tl;dr: kat is as ult dependant as before, but the ult is better.
YO WHERE WERE YOU LIKE.... 30 MINUTES AGO.

I literally blew off three people who were trying to talk to me as I tried using a calculator and notepad to figure this math-y stuff out. Cmon man. You need to follow me around making math graphs for me, yeesh.

Anyway, solid points here. I think Kat just fundamentally falls for the whole assassin problem where if a player gets down, they'll be completely shut down (because you can't explode someone). If we buff her where she's always reliably blowing people up, that's obviously a tough sell. Champions with low to no utility or CC are quite difficult in terms of their player experience - you either kill or die horrendously.


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Akava

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Senior Member

09-30-2013

Katarina gets a flat buff, forums complain about it?

Seriously?


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LVNsNASmurf

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
YO WHERE WERE YOU LIKE.... 30 MINUTES AGO.

I literally blew off three people who were trying to talk to me as I tried using a calculator and notepad to figure this math-y stuff out. Cmon man. You need to follow me around making math graphs for me, yeesh.

Anyway, solid points here. I think Kat just fundamentally falls for the whole assassin problem where if a player gets down, they'll be completely shut down (because you can't explode someone). If we buff her where she's always reliably blowing people up, that's obviously a tough sell. Champions with low to no utility or CC are quite difficult in terms of their player experience - you either kill or die horrendously.
It was a couple minutes in Excel. But if I were to get a job with riot I'd prefer to be a programmer. (Reminds me, I should put in that application).

Anyway.... My problems with Kat is that she is a cooldown limited champion. Cooldown limted champions have a horrible trade of. Since there is no cost for ability use, the abilities have to have long cooldowns, or lower effects. Kat has the lower effect route. If we buffed her Q/W/E, then we would have too much power there, an effective murder machine with 100% uptime. This gets doubly bad, since her passive resets her Q/W/E, meaning if she could reliably get kills with Q/W/E, then she would bounce from enemy to enemy.

My fix would be give her a resource (energy, mana, hp, whatever). Thus, ability spam would send her into an out of mana (whatever) situation. Since spam is constrained by resource, we can let her have both short cooldowns and strong effects. The reset passive might have to go, since if the resource amount lets you do multiple rotations of your skills, then you get the situation you have above.

tl;dr: give Kat a resource, allowing Q/W/E buffing to reliably kill a 50-70% enemy in lane. This means her ult can be used at start or end of a teamfight, to soften up for kills or to finish them off.


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alpha quail

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Sorry but I'm with rito.

She got nerfed from everyone complaining because she would roll her basics all over your team and kill everything. And honestly it was a good nerf because kat rolling her face across all her basics and reset citying your entire team was and is stupid.

This is a straight buff and it puts more power on her ult which NEEDS it. It was core to her kit pre-rework and is still core post rework. The fact of the matter was that she was barely using her ult because it was unnecessarily weak.


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CakeandBacon

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
YO WHERE WERE YOU LIKE.... 30 MINUTES AGO.

I literally blew off three people who were trying to talk to me as I tried using a calculator and notepad to figure this math-y stuff out. Cmon man. You need to follow me around making math graphs for me, yeesh.

Anyway, solid points here. I think Kat just fundamentally falls for the whole assassin problem where if a player gets down, they'll be completely shut down (because you can't explode someone). If we buff her where she's always reliably blowing people up, that's obviously a tough sell. Champions with low to no utility or CC are quite difficult in terms of their player experience - you either kill or die horrendously.
Pwff I appreciate you jumping in on the Kat discussion (because it often feels very devoid or Red interaction) but I think you're missing the point a bit. Yes, Kat's current kit wipes whole teams sans ultimate if her QWE are too strong. But the point the OP is trying to make is that the whole point of the rework was to make her basic skills better, and now we are getting the very skill the rework was aimed at devaluing buffed -- not insignificantly, I might add. It feels like an odd disconnect, even if it makes sense given her current kit.

Personally I'm looking forward to playing my favorite champion with something resembling her old ult a little more. I love playing Kat old and new. I have my gripes with the new kit but it's not enough to ruin the experience at all.


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Gabe NewelI

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Come on Riot, just admit it. You shouldn't have remade Katarina at all.



Okay, the VU was nice, but the spell remake was a complete ****fest. Sinister Steel brought nothing but problems.


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Cuix

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
I for one don't refuse extra details and clarification on a change.
Sure, when they're relevant. My problem was that the first two points were not. Even Pwyff came back and gave different, more targeted information. As satisfying as it may be to condescend, it is usually more helpful to first think and understand.


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AntiSkillshot

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Sorry I had to hop off to chase down other things - in terms of her being overdependent on her ultimate, I'll note something here - this is a straight buff at earlyish-mid to late game. In terms of making her even more dependent on her ultimate, we haven't reduced the power on QWE in order to buff R, so this isn't a tradeoff (and you're not allowed to frame it like that!)

Here I'll reframe the discussion - if you think that by buffing Katarina's ultimate it means we'll never buff anything else ever, I'm not sure where that thinking comes from. Honestly speaking, however, a lot of Katarina's gameplay does come from her ultimate in terms of Katarina trying to position for a perfect ultimate and her opponents trying to stop it. Think Nunu, Warwick, or Malzahar (and they may have other problems but I'm just saying).

From the discussions we've had surrounding this change, buffing Katarina's level 6 damage isn't a great idea given it's typically a solo lane and we've nuked the cast time on it. If she straight outputs more damage at level 6 even from 1 second on, that's dangerous. The straight math:

NEW: 400/575/750 (+2.5 Ability Power)(+3.75 bonus Attack Damage)
OLD: 400/500/600 (+2.0 Ability Power)(+3.0 bonus Attack Damage)

The channel duration is effectively:

NEW: 2.5s total channel (damage throughout)
OLD: .25s windup + 1.75s = 2s total channel

I think Katarina does around the same frontloaded damage because there is no delay to her ultimate going off. I'll do quick math:

Assuming +22 AP (21/x/x masteries, +14.95 AP runes [no AP scaling runes]), and +2 bonus AD (havoc) at level 6 with only a 1 second channel time before it's interrupted:

OLD: 450 total damage. 192.855 first second (incorporating +0.25s cast time) + 257.14 second second.
NEW: 462.5 total damage. 205.555555 first second (no 0.25s cast time) + 205.5555556 second second + 102.7777778 last half second.

Assuming Katarina buys something safe like a Seeker's Armguard and no other AP items, we get to +43 AP and +2 AD:

OLD: 502 total damage. 215.14 first second / 286.86 second second
NEW: 558 total damage. 223.2 first second / 223.2 second second / 111.6 last half second

If I give her a NLR in addition to the Armguard and a level 2 ult...

OLD: 760 total damage. 325.71 first second / 434.28 second second
NEW: 900 total damage. 360 first second / 360 second second / 180 last half second

If I give her a Rabadon's + Zhonya's and a level 3 ult...

OLD: 1373 total damage. 588.38 first second / 784.5 second second
NEW: 1716.1 total damage. 686.4 first second / 686.4 second second / 343.2 last half second

That said, my math might be terrible because I am notoriously bad at it. Judging from these numbers though... We can assume that if Kat is allowed to channel for 2 seconds, she'll do more damage with her old ult. If she's allowed to channel for 2.5 seconds, she'll do more damage with her new ult.

I'd ultimately argue that if Kat is allowed to go beyond one second (around normalish reaction time to interrupt if you have the interrupt), she'll typically get off near the full ult. She actually does more damage in the first second (or beyond, I really don't want to do the DPS math here) with her new ult at all times so keep that in mind.

Anyway, this actually took some time to brain out but I'd reframe this. Is Katarina's kit fundamentally weak? I honestly don't think so, but she's got some problems in terms of being countered (I play LeBlanc, so I know all about getting counterpicked...) and I've seen players using her to great effectiveness at the highest levels. Is she picked in worlds or LCS? Maybe not, but that speaks more to the metagame and player priorities in their mage / assassin picks as opposed to a champion's fundamental balanced...ness.

But this discussion is getting a little aggressive and I'm sorry I left it for a bit Honestly speaking though I'll take a look through all the rest of this but I do disagree that we've somehow made her ultimate even more important if we just straight buffed it except within the 1s-2s window.

[edited for some silly clarity mistakes]
I've always had a problem with AD ratios on Kat. It's a, mildly, wasted stat on her. As her Q, nor its proc, have AD ratios. Only her W and her R have AD ratios.