@Riot: Why did you revert Kat to being overdependent on her ultimate?

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Xengre

Senior Member

09-30-2013

I assume these are PBE changes correct? If so I don't know the full extent of the changes, but unless her QWE were nerfed, and arguably significantly so at that, than she is by no means dependent on her ult to perform. Naturally, her ult should do enough dmg to make it worthy of being an ult, however, the rest of her kit still deals significant damage and has low CD (especially that W). In a teamfight if she is not dying than her ult is likely going to be completely out damaged by worthwhile margin by the rest of her kit, unlike the old ultra ult dependent Kat who would win teamfights with just R and nothing else or lose them if her ult failed.

Currently, Kat's ult isn't exactly desirable... generally to only be used as a last resort if your other abilities haven't made a kill... and really just to refresh CDs so you can use QWE again... The dmg on it is quite bad even as AoE and healing reduction.


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TootlesTheGoon

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Sorry I had to hop off to chase down other things - in terms of her being overdependent on her ultimate, I'll note something here - this is a straight buff at earlyish-mid to late game. In terms of making her even more dependent on her ultimate, we haven't reduced the power on QWE in order to buff R, so this isn't a tradeoff (and you're not allowed to frame it like that!)

Here I'll reframe the discussion - if you think that by buffing Katarina's ultimate it means we'll never buff anything else ever, I'm not sure where that thinking comes from. Honestly speaking, however, a lot of Katarina's gameplay does come from her ultimate in terms of Katarina trying to position for a perfect ultimate and her opponents trying to stop it. Think Nunu, Warwick, or Malzahar (and they may have other problems but I'm just saying).

From the discussions we've had surrounding this change, buffing Katarina's level 6 damage isn't a great idea given it's typically a solo lane and we've nuked the cast time on it. If she straight outputs more damage at level 6 even from 1 second on, that's dangerous. The straight math:

NEW: 400/575/750 (+2.5 Ability Power)(+3.75 bonus Attack Damage)
OLD: 400/500/600 (+2.0 Ability Power)(+3.0 bonus Attack Damage)

The channel duration is effectively:

NEW: 2.5s
OLD: .25s windup + 1.75s

Because we've shaved off that 0.25s channel time. Honestly speaking, I'm too lazy to do the math but I think Katarina does around the same frontloaded damage because there is no delay to her ultimate going off. I'll do quick math:

Assuming +22 AP (21/x/x masteries, +14.95 AP runes [no AP scaling runes]), and +2 bonus AD (havoc) at level 6 with only a 1 second channel time before it's interrupted:

OLD: 450 total damage. 192.855 first second (incorporating +0.25s cast time) + 257.14 second second.
NEW: 462.5 total damage. 205.555555 first second (no 0.25s cast time) + 205.5555556 second second + 102.7777778 last half second.

Assuming Katarina buys something safe like a Seeker's Armguard and no other AP items, we get to +43 AP and +2 AD:

OLD: 502 total damage. 215.14 first second / 286.86 second second
NEW: 558 total damage. 223.2 first second / 223.2 second second / 111.6 last half second

If I give her a NLR in addition to the Armguard and a level 2 ult...

OLD: 760 total damage. 325.71 first second / 434.28 second second
NEW: 900 total damage. 360 first second / 360 second second / 180 last half second

If I give her a Rabadon's + Zhonya's and a level 3 ult...

OLD: 1373 total damage. 588.38 first second / 784.5 second second
NEW: 1716.1 total damage. 686.4 first second / 686.4 second second / 343.2 last half second

That said, my math might be terrible because I am notoriously bad at it. Judging from these numbers though... We can assume that if Kat is allowed to channel for 2 seconds, she'll do more damage with her old ult. If she's allowed to channel for 2.5 seconds, she'll do more damage with her new ult.

I'd ultimately argue that if Kat is allowed to go beyond one second (around normalish reaction time to interrupt if you have the interrupt), she'll typically get off near the full ult. She actually does more damage in the first second (or beyond, I really don't want to do the DPS math here) with her new ult at all times so keep that in mind.

Anyway, this actually took some time to brain out but I'd reframe this. Is Katarina's kit fundamentally weak? I honestly don't think so, but she's got some problems in terms of being countered (I play LeBlanc, so I know all about getting counterpicked...) and I've seen players using her to great effectiveness at the highest levels. Is she picked in worlds or LCS? Maybe not, but that speaks more to the metagame and player priorities in their mage / assassin picks as opposed to a champion's fundamental balanced...ness.

But this discussion is getting a little aggressive and I'm sorry I left it for a bit Honestly speaking though I'll take a look through all the rest of this but I do disagree that we've somehow made her ultimate even more important if we just straight buffed it except within the 1s-2s window.
Much as I appreciate your time being spent on responding, I feel like you're still missing the point.
This is literally a case of buffs that *in a sense* are not helping an already-bad champion. Katarina's issue is not that her ult doesn't do enough damage.


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SpidermanHecarim

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Sorry I had to hop off to chase down other things - in terms of her being overdependent on her ultimate, I'll note something here - this is a straight buff at earlyish-mid to late game. In terms of making her even more dependent on her ultimate, we haven't reduced the power on QWE in order to buff R, so this isn't a tradeoff (and you're not allowed to frame it like that!)

Here I'll reframe the discussion - if you think that by buffing Katarina's ultimate it means we'll never buff anything else ever, I'm not sure where that thinking comes from. Honestly speaking, however, a lot of Katarina's gameplay does come from her ultimate in terms of Katarina trying to position for a perfect ultimate and her opponents trying to stop it. Think Nunu, Warwick, or Malzahar (and they may have other problems but I'm just saying).

From the discussions we've had surrounding this change, buffing Katarina's level 6 damage isn't a great idea given it's typically a solo lane and we've nuked the cast time on it. If she straight outputs more damage at level 6 even from 1 second on, that's dangerous. The straight math:

NEW: 400/575/750 (+2.5 Ability Power)(+3.75 bonus Attack Damage)
OLD: 400/500/600 (+2.0 Ability Power)(+3.0 bonus Attack Damage)

The channel duration is effectively:

NEW: 2.5s total channel (damage throughout)
OLD: .25s windup + 1.75s = 2s total channel

I think Katarina does around the same frontloaded damage because there is no delay to her ultimate going off. I'll do quick math:

Assuming +22 AP (21/x/x masteries, +14.95 AP runes [no AP scaling runes]), and +2 bonus AD (havoc) at level 6 with only a 1 second channel time before it's interrupted:

OLD: 450 total damage. 192.855 first second (incorporating +0.25s cast time) + 257.14 second second.
NEW: 462.5 total damage. 205.555555 first second (no 0.25s cast time) + 205.5555556 second second + 102.7777778 last half second.

Assuming Katarina buys something safe like a Seeker's Armguard and no other AP items, we get to +43 AP and +2 AD:

OLD: 502 total damage. 215.14 first second / 286.86 second second
NEW: 558 total damage. 223.2 first second / 223.2 second second / 111.6 last half second

If I give her a NLR in addition to the Armguard and a level 2 ult...

OLD: 760 total damage. 325.71 first second / 434.28 second second
NEW: 900 total damage. 360 first second / 360 second second / 180 last half second

If I give her a Rabadon's + Zhonya's and a level 3 ult...

OLD: 1373 total damage. 588.38 first second / 784.5 second second
NEW: 1716.1 total damage. 686.4 first second / 686.4 second second / 343.2 last half second

That said, my math might be terrible because I am notoriously bad at it. Judging from these numbers though... We can assume that if Kat is allowed to channel for 2 seconds, she'll do more damage with her old ult. If she's allowed to channel for 2.5 seconds, she'll do more damage with her new ult.

I'd ultimately argue that if Kat is allowed to go beyond one second (around normalish reaction time to interrupt if you have the interrupt), she'll typically get off near the full ult. She actually does more damage in the first second (or beyond, I really don't want to do the DPS math here) with her new ult at all times so keep that in mind.

Anyway, this actually took some time to brain out but I'd reframe this. Is Katarina's kit fundamentally weak? I honestly don't think so, but she's got some problems in terms of being countered (I play LeBlanc, so I know all about getting counterpicked...) and I've seen players using her to great effectiveness at the highest levels. Is she picked in worlds or LCS? Maybe not, but that speaks more to the metagame and player priorities in their mage / assassin picks as opposed to a champion's fundamental balanced...ness.

But this discussion is getting a little aggressive and I'm sorry I left it for a bit Honestly speaking though I'll take a look through all the rest of this but I do disagree that we've somehow made her ultimate even more important if we just straight buffed it except within the 1s-2s window.

[edited for some silly clarity mistakes]
I think people are asking for people to buff Q W or E instead of R
Just in my opinion


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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

Follow Riot Pwyff on Twitter

09-30-2013
3 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by TootlesTheGoon View Post
Much as I appreciate your time being spent on responding, I feel like you're still missing the point.
This is literally a case of buffs that *in a sense* are not helping an already-bad champion. Katarina's issue is not that her ult doesn't do enough damage.
Then we need to reframe this discussion to be that other aspects of Katarina's kit should be buffed and not her ult. My bad for jumping in, I just sort of saw it and wanted to hop in before a meeting.

That being said, I still disagree - Katarina does ridiculous amounts of damage if we buffed her QWE because she gets resets the moment an assist happens. If her damage is too high on QWE, she'll literally obliterate teams just on those abilities alone.

It's also worth mentioning that with the cooldown buffs on lotus she gets a straight full reset at 3 kills / assists @ lv3 ult.

Anyway, once again I'll say this didn't make Kat overdependent on her ultimate - it was a buff that makes her want to land a full ultimate but her core abilities still do really high damage. Her problems are inherent to assassins in that she needs to wait for an opportune moment to go in. I'd argue that other assassins (Zed, Kass, Ahri) are too safe and that Katarina is a good example of a champion who needs to find that opportunity to engage.


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Then we need to reframe this discussion to be that other aspects of Katarina's kit should be buffed and not her ult. My bad for jumping in, I just sort of saw it and wanted to hop in before a meeting.

That being said, I still disagree - Katarina does ridiculous amounts of damage if we buffed her QWE because she gets resets the moment an assist happens. If her damage is too high on QWE, she'll literally obliterate teams just on those abilities alone.

It's also worth mentioning that with the cooldown buffs on lotus she gets a straight full reset at 3 kills / assists @ lv3 ult.

Anyway, once again I'll say this didn't make Kat overdependent on her ultimate - it was a buff that makes her want to land a full ultimate but her core abilities still do really high damage. Her problems are inherent to assassins in that she needs to wait for an opportune moment to go in. I'd argue that other assassins (Zed, Kass, Ahri) are too safe and that Katarina is a good example of a champion who needs to find that opportunity to engage.

Alright, I'm going to go ahead and put my faith in you guys. It looks like this change was really well thought out, and judging by the information you posted in your last 2 posts, I feel confident katarina will play more like katarina SHOULD. Which is what i fell in love with prior to the rework.


*EDIT* Now make her shunpo damage reduction stronger against minion/jungle mosnters so i can jungle with her more effectively


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Rauron

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Pwyff, you just put a lot of work into an extremely long post that said almost nothing relevant. The only part that was at all addressing the point of this thread was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Honestly speaking, however, a lot of Katarina's gameplay does come from her ultimate in terms of Katarina trying to position for a perfect ultimate and her opponents trying to stop it. Think Nunu, Warwick, or Malzahar (and they may have other problems but I'm just saying).
Edit: never mind, third time's the charm, now the point has been addressed, even if the reply is basically "well yeah but that's the point"


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Hardinger

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
But this discussion is getting a little aggressive and I'm sorry I left it for a bit Honestly speaking though I'll take a look through all the rest of this but I do disagree that we've somehow made her ultimate even more important if we just straight buffed it except within the 1s-2s window.

[edited for some silly clarity mistakes]

d'awwh, how can you guys be mad at this silly poro?


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
Pwyff, you just put a lot of work into an extremely long post that said almost nothing relevant. The only part that was at all addressing the point of this thread was:
I for one don't refuse extra details and clarification on a change.


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GrumpyKatze

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Was I the only one who downvoted this OP's post? They didn't nerf Kat and buffed her ult, his logic is literally a pile of steaming sh*t.

EDIT; This is like Darius players getting back the full reset and complaining about it.

I don't get it.


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Khorgain

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yousogreat View Post
Against opponents who won't use that stun for ANYTHING except that Death Lotus?

That logic...
It's called getting countered. (ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧

Get used to it.