@Riot: Why did you revert Kat to being overdependent on her ultimate?

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Spookygrampa

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballistixz View Post
ya, 180+25% AP on her W is horrendously bad.

i understand that her ratios cant be to high because she is a manaless champ, but there is a imit. putting ALL of her power into her ult and making her utterly useless while its down is poor design. she can barely harasse anyone even in top lane because one W is heal off by a ****ing pot or 2 let alone champs that have self sustain or rush a cowl lmao.
Works for fiddles and nunu. Also before you start sighting fear and counter jungling ability on nunu, think of how well kat can roam and bypass easy ward spots.


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Raiyn

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
You'll see this in the patch notes but we actually removed the initial cast delay of Death Lotus (it used to be 0.25 so it's now 0). With the increased ratios and higher base values at higher levels, even with the increased channel time I think Kat does the same or higher overall damage even if interrupted super early but now does even more damage (like... a lot more) if she's allowed her full channel.

Food for thought!

I think you missed the question Pwyff. Please save face and answer the real question posed by the OP

I like poros so much I don't want them to be slow poros


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exec3

Senior Member

09-30-2013

I don't even play Kat anymore because of her utter reliance on her ult and her resets. It's to the point where I can't farm because her abilities base damage is so freaking low, nevermind getting into a 1v1 before lvl6. She seems to only be good at cleanup and finishing off opponents which isn't very fun imo. Even if fed I often feel like i'm behind.

OP is right, the remake (which I thought was quite successful before you overnerfed her in typical Riot fashion) was suppose to make her not so over reliant on her ult (thus making her less binary/snowbally) which you're systematically undoing.


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XiuzSu

Senior Member

09-30-2013

I hope I'm not along in saying that I liked Kat a lot better pre-rework...
Just revert it and don't touch her until you can come up with an actual plan on what to do with her.
exec3, I 100% agree with you, I feel the same way.

Katarina needs a buff explanation/commentary video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlpaQS5Edrk


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CW Forg1ven

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
You'll see this in the patch notes but we actually removed the initial cast delay of Death Lotus (it used to be 0.25 so it's now 0). With the increased ratios and higher base values at higher levels, even with the increased channel time I think Kat does the same or higher overall damage even if interrupted super early but now does even more damage (like... a lot more) if she's allowed her full channel.

Food for thought!
Did anybody even read this rioters post!?!? This makes katarina ult START EARLIER DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT MEANS?


OMG I CANNOT IMAGINE THE AMOUNT OF TIMES SOMEONE JUST FLASHED RIGHT AS I CAST ULT and they take NO DAMAGE!@!#!@#!#!@


this is amazing buff, i don't know why you are complaining.


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CW Forg1ven

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Yeah keep downvoting him and I, even though it's 100% a buff with no nerfs anywhere at all.


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Borigrad

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Buff her ultimate and not reduce the power of any other ability. "this makes her to ultimate reliant" that leap of logic is amazing.


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Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

Follow Riot Pwyff on Twitter

09-30-2013
2 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metablast View Post
All this says is that she's still overdependent on her ultimate. Not sure if you read OP's post.
Sorry I had to hop off to chase down other things - in terms of her being overdependent on her ultimate, I'll note something here - this is a straight buff at earlyish-mid to late game. In terms of making her even more dependent on her ultimate, we haven't reduced the power on QWE in order to buff R, so this isn't a tradeoff (and you're not allowed to frame it like that!)

Here I'll reframe the discussion - if you think that by buffing Katarina's ultimate it means we'll never buff anything else ever, I'm not sure where that thinking comes from. Honestly speaking, however, a lot of Katarina's gameplay does come from her ultimate in terms of Katarina trying to position for a perfect ultimate and her opponents trying to stop it. Think Nunu, Warwick, or Malzahar (and they may have other problems but I'm just saying).

From the discussions we've had surrounding this change, buffing Katarina's level 6 damage isn't a great idea given it's typically a solo lane and we've nuked the cast time on it. If she straight outputs more damage at level 6 even from 1 second on, that's dangerous. The straight math:

NEW: 400/575/750 (+2.5 Ability Power)(+3.75 bonus Attack Damage)
OLD: 400/500/600 (+2.0 Ability Power)(+3.0 bonus Attack Damage)

The channel duration is effectively:

NEW: 2.5s total channel (damage throughout)
OLD: .25s windup + 1.75s = 2s total channel

I think Katarina does around the same frontloaded damage because there is no delay to her ultimate going off. I'll do quick math:

Assuming +22 AP (21/x/x masteries, +14.95 AP runes [no AP scaling runes]), and +2 bonus AD (havoc) at level 6 with only a 1 second channel time before it's interrupted:

OLD: 450 total damage. 192.855 first second (incorporating +0.25s cast time) + 257.14 second second.
NEW: 462.5 total damage. 205.555555 first second (no 0.25s cast time) + 205.5555556 second second + 102.7777778 last half second.

Assuming Katarina buys something safe like a Seeker's Armguard and no other AP items, we get to +43 AP and +2 AD:

OLD: 502 total damage. 215.14 first second / 286.86 second second
NEW: 558 total damage. 223.2 first second / 223.2 second second / 111.6 last half second

If I give her a NLR in addition to the Armguard and a level 2 ult...

OLD: 760 total damage. 325.71 first second / 434.28 second second
NEW: 900 total damage. 360 first second / 360 second second / 180 last half second

If I give her a Rabadon's + Zhonya's and a level 3 ult...

OLD: 1373 total damage. 588.38 first second / 784.5 second second
NEW: 1716.1 total damage. 686.4 first second / 686.4 second second / 343.2 last half second

That said, my math might be terrible because I am notoriously bad at it. Judging from these numbers though... We can assume that if Kat is allowed to channel for 2 seconds, she'll do more damage with her old ult. If she's allowed to channel for 2.5 seconds, she'll do more damage with her new ult.

I'd ultimately argue that if Kat is allowed to go beyond one second (around normalish reaction time to interrupt if you have the interrupt), she'll typically get off near the full ult. She actually does more damage in the first second (or beyond, I really don't want to do the DPS math here) with her new ult at all times so keep that in mind.

Anyway, this actually took some time to brain out but I'd reframe this. Is Katarina's kit fundamentally weak? I honestly don't think so, but she's got some problems in terms of being countered (I play LeBlanc, so I know all about getting counterpicked...) and I've seen players using her to great effectiveness at the highest levels. Is she picked in worlds or LCS? Maybe not, but that speaks more to the metagame and player priorities in their mage / assassin picks as opposed to a champion's fundamental balanced...ness.

But this discussion is getting a little aggressive and I'm sorry I left it for a bit Honestly speaking though I'll take a look through all the rest of this but I do disagree that we've somehow made her ultimate even more important if we just straight buffed it except within the 1s-2s window.

[edited for some silly clarity mistakes]


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Ginga

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Recruiter

09-30-2013

All I'm afraid of is that she'll become OP again.

The thing with Riot and assassins is that you always have one hell of a time balancing them. They always have such a narrow window of balance. Never used or overpowered. Or not even used as an assassin at all.


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CommandShockwave

Senior Member

09-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot Pwyff View Post
Sorry I had to hop off to chase down other things - in terms of her being overdependent on her ultimate, I'll note something here - this is a straight buff at earlyish-mid to late game. In terms of making her even more dependent on her ultimate, we haven't reduced the power on QWE in order to buff R, so this isn't a tradeoff (and you're not allowed to frame it like that!)

Here I'll reframe the discussion - if you think that by buffing Katarina's ultimate it means we'll never buff anything else ever, I'm not sure where that thinking comes from. Honestly speaking, however, a lot of Katarina's gameplay does come from her ultimate in terms of Katarina trying to position for a perfect ultimate and her opponents trying to stop it. Think Nunu, Warwick, or Malzahar (and they may have other problems but I'm just saying).

From the discussions we've had surrounding this change, buffing Katarina's level 6 damage isn't a great idea given it's typically a solo lane and we've nuked the cast time on it. If she straight outputs more damage at level 6 even from 1 second on, that's dangerous. The straight math:

NEW: 400/575/750 (+2.5 Ability Power)(+3.75 bonus Attack Damage)
OLD: 400/500/600 (+2.0 Ability Power)(+3.0 bonus Attack Damage)

The channel duration is effectively:

NEW: 135s
OLD: 120s

Because we've shaved off that 0.25s channel time. Honestly speaking, I'm too lazy to do the math but I think Katarina does around the same frontloaded damage because there is no delay to her ultimate going off. I'll do quick math:

Assuming +22 AP (21/x/x masteries, +14.95 AP runes [no AP scaling runes]), and +2 bonus AD (havoc) at level 6 with only a 1 second channel time before it's interrupted:

OLD: 450 total damage. 192.855 first second (incorporating +0.25s cast time) + 257.14 second second.
NEW: 462.5 total damage. 205.555555 first second (no 0.25s cast time) + 205.5555556 second second + 102.7777778 last half second.

Assuming Katarina buys something safe like a Seeker's Armguard and no other AP items, we get to +43 AP and +2 AD:

OLD: 502 total damage. 215.14 first second / 286.86 second second
NEW: 558 total damage. 223.2 first second / 223.2 second second / 111.6 last half second

If I give her a NLR in addition to the Armguard and a level 2 ult...

OLD: 760 total damage. 325.71 first second / 434.28 second second
NEW: 900 total damage. 360 first second / 360 second second / 180 last half second

If I give her a Rabadon's + Zhonya's and a level 3 ult...

OLD: 1373 total damage. 588.38 first second / 784.5 second second
NEW: 1716.1 total damage. 686.4 first second / 686.4 second second / 343.2 last half second

That said, my math might be terrible because I am notoriously bad at it. Judging from these numbers though... We can assume that if Kat is allowed to channel for 2 seconds, she'll do more damage with her old ult. If she's allowed to channel for 2.5 seconds, she'll do more damage with her new ult.

I'd ultimately argue that if Kat is allowed to go beyond one second (around normalish reaction time to interrupt if you have the interrupt), she'll typically get off near the full ult. She actually does more damage in the first second (or beyond, I really don't want to do the DPS math here) with her new ult at all times so keep that in mind.

Anyway, this actually took some time to brain out but I'd reframe this. Is Katarina's kit fundamentally weak? I honestly don't think so, but she's got some problems in terms of being countered (I play LeBlanc, so I know all about getting counterpicked...) and I've seen players using her to great effectiveness at the highest levels. Is she picked in worlds or LCS? Maybe not, but that speaks more to the metagame and player priorities in their mage / assassin picks as opposed to a champion's fundamental balanced...ness.

But this discussion is getting a little aggressive and I'm sorry I left it for a bit Honestly speaking though I'll take a look through all the rest of this but I do disagree that we've somehow made her ultimate even more important if we just straight buffed it except within the 1s-2s window
TL;DR: This is a free buff, it's not making her MORE dependent on her ult because there's no tradeoff. She's better than she was before, period.