A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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arwingflyer98

Member

09-25-2013

*facepalm* I completely forgot about the Jungle also going under construction alongside the support role...if all goes well with these changes, it should only help the new Rengar...makes sense.

Thanks Scarizard, the swift reply is much appreciated!


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Insanities Eye

Junior Member

09-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn View Post
I'm sorry which part did I say was incorrect?




and




So, yeah, what did I say was me not reading again?

Ill go back to my point now sir.

@Scarizard How does top lane Rengar CS under a tower when losing with the new bola. What would you suggest?
Why does empowered battle roar not give AR/MR Does he scream so loud he can't defend himself? Or is he screaming but its to heal himself and so he can't feel tougher or more ferocious? Or...? Im really confused as to why an empowered ability loses a base effect - No other champion with empowered abilities has this drawback.
I go back to my point sir, there is an mr/armor bonus with w, and thanks to the Bola being a skill shot, now the range and damage can now be increased, plus the root has been extended (more likely 2 sec root). Personally I love these changes, adds more variety to rengar instead of just a one way build


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Mr Sir Lebowski

Senior Member

09-26-2013

I don't know.....

I just don't know!!

I want to like everything but it sounds sooo shaky, especially considering the fact that the rework is going to be partially dependant on the jungle rework, and I'm sure the jungle rework is not being based on Rengar so that's a carp shoot. Who's to say the jungle rework doesn't just work even better for the current good junglers and leave Rengar just as far behind as he ever was.

I want to start out positive though. I want to say that E sounds like it could definitely be a good change since the power of it IS scaling up even though the difficulty will scale up a bit. So in that area if nothing else was changed to him I think it would be a buff. I think we can safely say E is getting buffed.

The ult change.., hrrmm it sounds like it could actually end up being an overall buff. There are lots of situations where the new ult could get you kills the old ult otherwise would not. It works the other way as well though,where there will be times the old ult would give you more kills but I think overall the new ult could (taking the whole game not just a specific part) into account be a buff just requiring more skill like the new E.

W is another one that is shaky. It sounds like early game it will be stronger since no one really levels it over Q most of the time. I don't have much to say on this, W has always been a bit of a 'just there to use ability except in niche builds.

So now some negative feedback

Q...... This sounds like it is getting a big nerf. This I think is the skill most players are concerned about because unlike the ult that is being given an ultimatum for changing (because of stealth) Q could be left the same. Really the only thing that *needs* to be changed is the tower destroying power. However for Rengar to be more competitive there would need to be more changes since I think Rengar ultimately is made or broken by his Q. He's not winning fights without it and he only has real utility in 1 ability so he has to do damage and Q is the primary damaging ability he has so it's where I'm focusing my attention.

For those of you who don't know the preliminary changes currently being reviewed and will probably change a bit are

Q Savagery
-Cooldown decreased
-Damage slightly reduced
-Attack Speed Bonus slightly increased

Ferocity Effect: Savagery
-Damage Reduced
-No longer grants Attack Speed
-Now Grants 3 Ferocity

Now considering most people dump there ferocity into Q >Q and reading the above we can safely say that Q > Q is being nerfed. Supposedly Rengar is being given a little bit more dueling potential and sustain in trade but so far I don't see where the dueling potential comes from. Is it supposed to come from his skills gaining power from having levels inherently? So now if Q > Q is not doing enough damage W > Q or Q > W or.... whatever is going to make up for that damage? Because I don't see how W or E is exactly going to make much of a difference in dueling if Q > Q is nerfed.

I just don't see how he is gaining any dueling potential while also having his burst nerfed a bit and as far as I can tell with the attk speed reduced the sustained damage will be nerfed as well. His ferocity Q now gives no attack speed and the damage has been reduced on both the first Q and the second Q. Is the one extra ferocity from the empowered Q supposed to give him more dueling potential? I don't see any increase in duration for the attack speed boost that has been slightly buffed for the original Q. To me all I see is increased sustain. Reduced cooldown with reduced damage and a tiny boost to ferocity gain just shows me a possible increase in sustain.


Where does the increased dueling potential come from?? His skills do not provide it as far as I can see. If anything his dueling potential has gone down from skills, so now the only other place it could come from is base stats. We hear his base stats are supposed to be increased, but are they really going to be increased to the point that he can duel better with what looks like just number tweaking as far as an actual duel is concerned. He has no debuffs to apply or changes in his skills that effect dueling except for E and number changes and what I took away from this is that he will need to fight longer because of lower burst but doesn’t really have anything to help in longer fights except 1 extra ferocity and slight number tweaking.

BONE TOOTH NECKLACE

I actually like the item currently. It's nothing great but it does have flavor. The new one sounds really bad with the changes. If you are determined to make it a utility item it needs something much more useful. Something that will provide an effect similar to frozen mallet, QSS, shurelias(single person), mercury treads. Perhaps OP but something similar. I just think it needs something more or people won't buy it.

I just don't see it

Overall I think with the changes Rengar will stay at the power level he is currently at. His tower pushing will be nerfed a bit, his burst will be nerfed a bit but his ganking will be buffed a bit. End game I don't really know but he's never been an end game champ.

Constructive criticsm

If you want to give Rengar a real *change* other than numbers E was an interesting change and it was an actual change but not that big of a change. A real change would be to add some type of debuff he could apply to an opponent for dueling, like something on an empowered W that would make sense to use against tankier targets that you would face in dueling that wouldn’t have the burst you would want from Q for squishier targets. And for bonetooth to give some type of new useful utilty that is powerful enough to make it worth buying while taking away base stats from it. Giving Rengar more base stats doesn’t make up for his lost skills AND his nerfed bonetooth.

I do love the communication with us on this though and I'm sorry for being such a downer.


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Parapsychology

Member

09-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bola Strike
-Now a skillshot
-Range greatly increased
-AD Ratio increased
-Slow no longer scales with rank
-Slow no longer decays over 2.5s

Ferocity Effect: Bola Strike
-Root Duration increased


Hey scarizard, what if you scaled the range of bola with each rank, this could add a little more stability into lategame Rengar and lessen it's strength early on?


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Lyrdian

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Senior Member

09-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Apologies if i'm coming off as 'pissy' - i don't intend to be. The negative feedback is a very important part of an iterative cycle, and in this case one that i anticipated. I'm going to continue testing it, but this was all intended as a 'Heads up, we're testing this and it's a possible outcome so i'd rather you know now' than a surprise change. If anything, my re-iteration that no changes are final isn't trying to get snippy with any of you, but just trying to keep you guys realistic. This is not the end of the world. This is likely not even the end of these changes. Overreacting about changes that may or may not occur is something that keeps out good discussion, and a lot of people so far have been able to disagree with me without yelling or in one case telling me to kill myself (stay classy).

W's changes are intended to build in a strength and weakness in one go. By shifting his power budget to make him super effective vs a certain set of champions, we can also make him weaker vs some others so when you see 'They have an AD + Bruisers' you can feel better about your Rengar selection, or that when the enemy picks Rengar you can say 'X type champion will do really well here'. The W changes aren't 100% necessary for the rework to ship which is why i'm trying it out, but does give it a targeted use-case and shuts down some opposing laners in Top as well as making him have a better go at jungle, so it's worth scouting out the potential.

To me, 'stalking' can mean just as much about strength/speed/stalking in a brush or fog of war rather than stealth. A lot of these changes are targeted around making Rengar more scary not only in brush, but in skirmishes/disorganized fights in places near it and Fog of War (Dragon, Baron, Buffs) and lowering his power outside of those zones. Rengar -can- have stealth if he needs it, but making him King of the Jungle (not necessarily in role, but in literal map locations) may not necessitate it.

Again, i don't mean to spurn anyone - i'm just against any type of reaction that limits discussion. As for your thoughts on 'this kills lane Rengar' - why do you feel that way? I see that the changes can come off as more Jungle Rengar specifically because it's something i want to improve, but nothing in testing has shown that Top Rengar is any weaker at all outside of level 2 instagib cases. His W makes him take next to no minion damage and gives him great trading potential vs bruisers/assassins alike and while his E is no longer targeted, hitting it from a longer range is a great enabler - not to mention it's just as easy to hit once you've used brush to leap directly on to your target, dealing more damage and allowing you to wail on your opponent with Q's buffed AS%. That + buffs to health/health regen in the main post make me most excited to play him toplane, as a top-laner main specifically. I'd like more insight into why you feel Top Rengar suffers here?

So in essense what i got from the no minion/lane damage is Garen, Fizz, Singed, Malphite, Shyvanna, aatrox and fiora all are getting reworked in the defense/lane durability department.

Garen, free armor AND an activate on top of it.
Fizz, passive plus mediocre defense masteries and armor, no minion dmg.
Singed can sit behind your tower at level 3 if your jungler is ganking bot ALL DAY if he wanted to.
Malphite has a impressive hp shield at low levels AND an activate armor boost.
Shyvanna gets free armor at 6+ and has decent durability before that, not that i endorse top lane shyv.
Aatrox laughs maniacly at minion damage.
Fiora is just insane.



Not saying that renagr doesnt need fixes but how about focusing on champions like shaco or poppy who have been in the game since dirt was summoned and need VU and Kit reworks?

And i have to say but overall, in the 3ish years i have played the game you guys are slowl but surely KILLING stealth champions. Eve is not an assassin anymore, she is a anti-sightward fighter, twitch is a carry with a crappy stealth, shaco couldnt Q around chogath to save his soul AND his utility/damage are now at their lowest, Rengar LOOKS TO BE (not saying he is) getting hit and oracles are now easy to buy mid-late game as champs are beefier and oracles dont fade on death now (though time limit is nice).


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Chummington

Junior Member

09-27-2013

please just keep him the same he was, now every one will play him and he will become popular and well know, I love when I play rengar and no one knows how he works.KEEP HIM THE SAME. this skillshot bola strike thing is asss.


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RadiantWings

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Senior Member

09-27-2013

Didn't you say that you wanted something other than a duration increase for Thrill of the Hunt's Ferocity bonus?

How about this:

Every point of Ferocity spent on Thrill of the Hunt increases the total Ferocity it generates by 2 (maximum of 15 Ferocity generated over 11.25 seconds.)

So choosing whether to spend Ferocity on Thrill of the Hunt or not is now based on short term vs. Long term benefits.


Also Bonetooth being a jungle item is still unnecessarily pigeonholing him into a role. Have you guys considered changing *any* of Bonetooth's mechanics at all?


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FriedPineapple

Junior Member

09-27-2013

HOLY****, gg Rengar is useless now, you have people like thresh who arent being nerfed, thresh's q is literally a skarner ult and that's why skarner is useless now. And Rengar has counters, I dont see why nerf again, Nasus is rape against Rengar, and Teemo makes Rengars q worthless. "Lets not nerf cait, lets nerf Rengar" - Riot


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DontChangeRengar

Junior Member

09-27-2013

I was originally for these changes but now it just seems only for the pure intention of nerfing and I have changed my stance. The only thing I see being a solid buff is the Bola Strike change but even that is going to be blocked by creeps. Bonetooth changes are buffs for the jungle but nerfs for lane. All the rest of the abilities are receiving damage / utility reduction.

I really want riot to either scrap the change or start over and do it better - not bland out and nerf and call it a rework

Make q a bleed, attack damage up front, %50 ATDam over 5 seconds - empowered 100% ATDam up front - 150% over 3 seconds

Battle roar, make armor and MR scaled based on champions hit, with 5 champions bring rengar up to 75% reduction and zero / one champion as current is. -
Empowered ability does half current heal but gives large health regen for 6 seconds - based on max hp but scales less with higher hp pools

Bola changes proposed are okay, obviously well thought out and brings spice to the mix maybe with the root allows rengar to leap to the target outside brush

I agree that his ult is toxic currently. Many times have I been abused for the ult. I like the changes with this. But it shouldn't just do one leap and be over. for the 15seconds it needs to allow leaping (champions only) give sight and movement speed (stealth only available out of combat)

If these were the kind of things we saw with the test phase of the rework I'd be much more pleased at riots creativity. Not this 'Nerf by rework' design they are now implementing and applying to Rengar as the kids mum's band aid for those who cannot deal with him


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PlasmaWreck

Junior Member

09-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DontChangeRengar View Post
I was originally for these changes but now it just seems only for the pure intention of nerfing and I have changed my stance. The only thing I see being a solid buff is the Bola Strike change but even that is going to be blocked by creeps. Bonetooth changes are buffs for the jungle but nerfs for lane. All the rest of the abilities are receiving damage / utility reduction.

I really want riot to either scrap the change or start over and do it better - not bland out and nerf and call it a rework

Make q a bleed, attack damage up front, %50 ATDam over 5 seconds - empowered 100% ATDam up front - 150% over 3 seconds

Battle roar, make armor and MR scaled based on champions hit, with 5 champions bring rengar up to 75% reduction and zero / one champion as current is. -
Empowered ability does half current heal but gives large health regen for 6 seconds - based on max hp but scales less with higher hp pools

Bola changes proposed are okay, obviously well thought out and brings spice to the mix maybe with the root allows rengar to leap to the target outside brush

I agree that his ult is toxic currently. Many times have I been abused for the ult. I like the changes with this. But it shouldn't just do one leap and be over. for the 15seconds it needs to allow leaping (champions only) give sight and movement speed (stealth only available out of combat)

If these were the kind of things we saw with the test phase of the rework I'd be much more pleased at riots creativity. Not this 'Nerf by rework' design they are now implementing and applying to Rengar as the kids mum's band aid for those who cannot deal with him
Signed in just to agree with this fully and hope it comes true