A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Yousing

Senior Member

09-25-2013

Hey, I'm an avid Rengar player and owner of his Headhunter skin which I think is a really cool skin. I'm like some other people I'm wondering if he will get a skin with his release?


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Mazinger

Senior Member

09-25-2013

Make bonetooth necklace his new passive. I don't see a lot of people buying it anyways.


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Raiyn

Senior Member

09-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insanities Eye View Post
can people take the time to look at the other posts to see that the thread has been updated?

I'm sorry which part did I say was incorrect?

Quote:
Battle Roar
-Damage increased
-Cooldown decreased

Ferocity Effect: Battle Roar
-No longer grants Armor/MR (Base Battle Roar still does)

and

Quote:
Bola Strike
-Now a skillshot

So, yeah, what did I say was me not reading again?

Ill go back to my point now sir.

@Scarizard How does top lane Rengar CS under a tower when losing with the new bola. What would you suggest?
Why does empowered battle roar not give AR/MR Does he scream so loud he can't defend himself? Or is he screaming but its to heal himself and so he can't feel tougher or more ferocious? Or...? Im really confused as to why an empowered ability loses a base effect - No other champion with empowered abilities has this drawback.


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Zenmetsu Saseru

Senior Member

09-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post

Updated 9/24 - updates in bold


Bonetooth Necklace
??? AD, ??? AD/lvl
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush

6 Stacks: Leap range increased

9 Stacks: Rengar gains %MS for 2s after leaping

14 Stacks: Rengar does not lose his Thrill of the Hunt bonus speed upon activating Stealth
Lovin' it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
General
-Base Health Regen increased
-Health Regen per Level increased
-Health per Level increased
-All Ferocity Bonuses are now scaled with Champion Level (Similar to his Heal) rather than with the rank of the ability.
This last one sort of bothers me, so far it sounds like I will be held back no matter how far ahead I actually get in a game. Of course, mechanical feel might have a different result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Unseen Predator
-Rengar now becomes visible at the beginning of his leap, rather than mid-leap.
Not sure why this changed was suggested, the 300 units of being unseen I'm sure helped him a lot. Hell, watching people throw their skill shots in such unfavorable direction is fantastic. I have never really been on the receiving end of Rengar so I can't say what it looks like atheistically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Savagery
-Cooldown decreased
-Damage slightly reduced
-Attack Speed Bonus slightly increased

Ferocity Effect: Savagery
-Damage Reduced
-No longer grants Attack Speed
-Now Grants 3 Ferocity
I can see a slew of reasons why this came about. But I kind of rely on the AS bonus from the empowered Savagery, so unless "slightly" means +100% AS, then this is going to be somewhat strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Battle Roar
-Damage increased
-Cooldown decreased

Ferocity Effect: Battle Roar
-No longer grants Armor/MR (Base Battle Roar still does)
Personal want: Revert damage increase; give defense bonus back to empowered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bola Strike
-Now a skillshot
-Range greatly increased
-AD Ratio increased
-Slow no longer scales with rank
-Slow no longer decays over 2.5s

Ferocity Effect: Bola Strike
-Root Duration increased
Hoooooly ****.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Thrill of the Hunt *REMADE*
-No longer immediately stealths Rengar
-Now consumes all Ferocity on cast (Each 1 Ferocity consumed this way increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second)
-Rengar gains Movement Speed, Vision, and Ferocity Generation while in Thrill of the Hunt and his first basic attack will cause him to leap.
-After a brief delay, Rengar may recast Thrill of the Hunt to stealth for a few seconds at the cost of Thrill of the Hunt's bonus speed
-Cooldown decreased
-Movement Speed% increased
-Duration increased
In the da beginning, there was dees noobs, see? They thought that Rengar had instant stealth while in reality it took .25 seconds (At least that's what I remember seeing). Most people thought that .25 seconds was either too short or "instant". I'm embarrassed to say that I've wasted my ult countless times using it to reposition in a fight and dying because of the stealth delay, and it's only happened more frequently since the extended duration (sans the Twitch "Oh noes, they hittin' me" delay change). Playing ranked might have given me a different view on how fast his stealth is, but I still think that .25 seconds is a impossibly long time in this game.

Otherwise, I want this Rengar so bad.


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MomStalker

Senior Member

09-25-2013

after reading the rework, that sounds damn nice. Congratulations for Rito for this one, making up for that bad Yi rework ._.


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arwingflyer98

Member

09-25-2013

@Scarizard
I really like the way the rework is going (it's unfortunate that it was delayed...), but what concerns me is the part where Rengar's Empowered abilities scale based on level. I find it to be a challenge to keep up in levels with Jungle Rengar due to the difficulty of getting successful ganks early game, but maybe that's just me. Making the Empowered abilities scale based on level looks like it'll be harder to get back up if you're not doing so well in-game, let alone the fact that Rengar isn't really good for making comebacks. This makes Rengar seem even more like a "either-fly-or-die" champion, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's why Rengar's getting reworked, along with the Ultimate/passive issue.

Maybe I shouldn't be sticking the old Rengar capabilities with the new Rengar, but is there any sort of information that could assuage my, and anyone else's, concerns? I see Zenmetsu Saseru's beat me to expressing opinions on the change, and I agree with the fact that mechanical feel could yeild a different result, but again, I'm not totally convinced that's the case.

-arwingflyer98


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Braums Stache

Junior Member

09-25-2013

Hey Scarizard,
I love the work you have done so far at riot and hopefully I can work alongside you next summer in the internship program, but I thought I would give you some of my thoughts on Rengar and the rework:
-Q-train looks incredibly fun and rewarding to pull off
-E looks really good and excites me the most about this rework but I think it should definitely give vision
-R looks like it will be really fun to play around with and I'm really excited for rocket cat but have you thought about making a VO play when he jumps on a target? If you didn't want to make new VO's you could always use one of his already existent quotes (I'm thinking "the scent of prey" or "What a glorious hunt")
-Why does BTN not have team constructive benefits, considering assists make up a majority of your trophies. Maybe you could make his 9-stacks also give your team AOE AD or AP or simply give it some kind of benefit for your team additionally. I feel like if the damage was to be kept low, it would definitely need a truckload more utility to be worth a purchase. Maybe some form of additional damage to low health targets could also be added into BTN.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

09-25-2013
76 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by arwingflyer98 View Post
@Scarizard
I really like the way the rework is going (it's unfortunate that it was delayed...), but what concerns me is the part where Rengar's Empowered abilities scale based on level. I find it to be a challenge to keep up in levels with Jungle Rengar due to the difficulty of getting successful ganks early game, but maybe that's just me. Making the Empowered abilities scale based on level looks like it'll be harder to get back up if you're not doing so well in-game, let alone the fact that Rengar isn't really good for making comebacks. This makes Rengar seem even more like a "either-fly-or-die" champion, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's why Rengar's getting reworked, along with the Ultimate/passive issue.

Maybe I shouldn't be sticking the old Rengar capabilities with the new Rengar, but is there any sort of information that could assuage my, and anyone else's, concerns? I see Zenmetsu Saseru's beat me to expressing opinions on the change, and I agree with the fact that mechanical feel could yeild a different result, but again, I'm not totally convinced that's the case.

-arwingflyer98
Hey arwing,

So i understand your concerns about Jungle XP, but what i can say is that one of the systems that we're working on (that demands so much testing Rengar is delayed) along with Vision and Support priorities is XP curves for junglers mid/late game. I can't really talk much more about it (and this thread wouldn't even be the place to do it) but rest assured that this is something that's on our radar, and should help this problem that you have

In general, the purpose of Champion Level scaling is that on Live, you rarely 5-Point a spell that you haven't already maxed. Maxing Bola for Harrass? Double Bola them for 480 base damage and 2x the AD Ratio. Maxing Roar or Q? Double-tap those as well. This isn't to say that there still aren't strategic reasons you'd want to Root or Heal with a Q Max build, but it's often overshadowed and in some cases flat out wrong due to the massive advantage of doubling up on a skill you already have.

This should make you feel much better about in-combat W2'ing instead of following up with that Q you maxed, because the damages are similar enough and based on level to where you aren't choosing 'Do i Q2 or W2 and lose X damage?' Now it should be clear 'Do i want 3 Ferocity to chain, a Heal to end the trade/sustain, or a root to escape/engage?' with the damages being similar enough that you don't mind about the damage loss.


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Furi Kuri

Member

09-25-2013

RIP Rengar 2013

Enjoy your corner of hell with Karma.


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emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

09-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey arwing,

So i understand your concerns about Jungle XP, but what i can say is that one of the systems that we're working on (that demands so much testing Rengar is delayed) along with Vision and Support priorities is XP curves for junglers mid/late game. I can't really talk much more about it (and this thread wouldn't even be the place to do it) but rest assured that this is something that's on our radar, and should help this problem that you have

In general, the purpose of Champion Level scaling is that on Live, you rarely 5-Point a spell that you haven't already maxed. Maxing Bola for Harrass? Double Bola them for 480 base damage and 2x the AD Ratio. Maxing Roar or Q? Double-tap those as well. This isn't to say that there still aren't strategic reasons you'd want to Root or Heal with a Q Max build, but it's often overshadowed and in some cases flat out wrong due to the massive advantage of doubling up on a skill you already have.

This should make you feel much better about in-combat W2'ing instead of following up with that Q you maxed, because the damages are similar enough and based on level to where you aren't choosing 'Do i Q2 or W2 and lose X damage?' Now it should be clear 'Do i want 3 Ferocity to chain, a Heal to end the trade/sustain, or a root to escape/engage?' with the damages being similar enough that you don't mind about the damage loss.
While I understand the point, and totally get what you are trying to do, I feel like this way would reduce the max effectiveness. For example, unless at level 9 q does 150 base damage and 2* ad, heal does 170 base damage and grants 43 armor and mr, and bola does another 240 damage, I lost out on early game damage, where Rengar is already weakest. Rather than choosing what I want to be the most effective, I am told what is most effective by the tooltip.
For example, Karma's empowered abilities all do extra damage based on her R level. Early on, it was only worth it to empower q as that was what you maxed first and thus did the most damage. Now, rather than empowering the strongest spell, you can choose whether you want insane damage, a big heal to survive, or a shield in teamfights. The only part of Karma's empowered abilities that doesn't rely on the base spell is her sheild. However each spell has a place and use.
So I would suggest, rather than making Rengar constrained to forever using only one or two spells empowered regardless of what he maxes, make the spells higher in utility and usefulness, and allow players to choose whether they want to do the most damage or have more utility.

The way i see this going is players finding out what empowered spell does the most damage, then maxing whatever style they like best and spamming that empowered spell only. The case will still be the same as now (If you don't use x empowered you are wasting the ferocity), only now it is determined by champion design rather than player preference. I get where you are trying to go with this, as right now empowered e is useless until you max e, but I feel it would be better to do it additively than by base.
Those are my opinions.