Damnit Morello is revealing all of my secrets again...

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Auryiel

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09-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Gold is a limiter. You use it when you want to make the decision to down a particular path meaningful. You should weigh your decisions wisely, adapt them to suit the battlefield and not simply be a pre-defined choice.

Furthermore, it gives us the ability to tune effects. Let's pretend that the CV item is too powerful. We can increase its cost until it has the appropriate trade-off. If we don't do that, we create another scenario like summoner spells - where Flash currently trumps all of the other spells and there's not a lot of room left to tune it.
Aren't CDs and limit of wards bought per minute appropriate limiters?


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Xelnath

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09-15-2013
14 of 15 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auryiel View Post
Aren't CDs and limit of wards bought per minute appropriate limiters?
No, that's missing an axis of tuning. Consider this:

In the A/B/C model, A creates gold on the map. B is neutral, C consumes the gold created.

Due to the nature of this reward structure alone, gold is necessary to compensate for the fact that these items modify your income stream. In theory, we could make killing wards not grant gold, but... why? That's just unsatisfying.


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Thales

Senior Member

09-15-2013

Seems sort of a rock-paper-scissors dynamic you have there. I think it depends on how aggressive I am, and how confident I am in my escapes. If I'm a very aggressive laner (or part of an aggressive duo-lane), I'd go B) in a heartbeat. If I know I can 1v1 my lane opponent, then all I need to know is that it's going to be a 1v1 for the duration of my fight. I don't care about longterm vision, because by the time the jungler shows up, my lane opponent will be dead. If I'm not, it gets tricky. I get punished pretty hard by picking A) or C) before my opponent commits to his form of the vision game. If I go A), they just pick C), and I'm without vision. If I go C), they go B), and I'm stuck with a worthless item in the vision game. Actually, B) doesn't seem to be countered by A) nearly as hard as each of the others has a counter, so it's probably dominant under this current set-up.

My concern would be that it would bring everyone fully into the vision game with minimal investment, and remove what makes supports "special". I think that dichotomy is one of the problems. Supports want to be the masters of vision, but they don't like having to spend all their gold on consumables. Even if that one slot were a sufficient gold-sink, I think you'd still have bad feelings over a largely empty inventory.

One further thought is that, if we're thinking of having a separate slot for vision items, why not have a separate slot for boots, the other very mandatory purchase? Then again, they are less interactive than vision items are likely to be.


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Pryotra

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09-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Okay, a number of people have floated this idea, so I'm going to pose it with a little tweak:

Add a unique slot that can only contain special vision items. In this slot, you can buy:
  • A) A re-usable ward (1 hp, 90 sec cd) [Upgrades into dropping real wards]
  • B) An item that is basically a mini CV (90 sec cd) [Upgrades into longer range/radius]
  • C) A scanner that lets you reveal hidden wards (90 sec cd) [Upgrades into shorter cooldown/limited oracles effect]

However, you can only have one of those items. Would you buy one? Assume 150g gold cost.
if wards stay the same, then as a support I just buy the scanner, and as a jungler I get the cv.

As anyone else I MIGHT get the ward, unless 1 of the other two roles I mentioned on my team fails at the vision game for the one I mentioned.

If this is to replace wards, then Support would likely end up getting the ward generator/scanner, as the carry needs to farm. Carries would likely get scanner, though maybe they would get the ward if the support was exceptionally bad at it. Jungle would likely get CV, and the other laners getting wards.

*opinion time*

Honesstly, this, and any idea that "forces" the team to help in the vision game, is a bad idea to me. The reason I think this is due to the fact that forcing people to do something with negative reinforcement is a terrible way to get people to change (Oh, you aren't playing the vision game? too bad, now you and your team will likely lose. GJ!) compared to positive reinforcement.

Vision, in and of itself, is clearly not providing enough of a tangible reward, which is something most consumables in this game suffer outside of high elo. While it may not be as appreciated in low elo, in higher elo the vision game is played by everyone. This indicates that perception is the problem, not power. Rewarding good usage of wards MORE will be more efficient in getting others to play the vision game. Making the vision game team reliant, and therefore harder to play per player on each side not participating, is flawed as it assumes that players will do something because they should. I think everyone knows how that works at low elo. Considering that is where the problem is, I doubt that this sort of persuasion will have any impact in getting the target demographic to perform.


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CarlSagansCosmos

Senior Member

09-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Okay, a number of people have floated this idea, so I'm going to pose it with a little tweak:

Add a unique slot that can only contain special vision items. In this slot, you can buy:
  • A) A re-usable ward (1 hp, 90 sec cd) [Upgrades into dropping real wards]
  • B) An item that is basically a mini CV (90 sec cd) [Upgrades into longer range/radius]
  • C) A scanner that lets you reveal hidden wards (90 sec cd) [Upgrades into shorter cooldown/limited oracles effect]

However, you can only have one of those items. Would you buy one? Assume 150g gold cost.
Is this assuming wards can no longer be bought or are they still available?

How many wards does option A offer?


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WizzadDeBz

Senior Member

09-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
No, that's missing an axis of tuning. Consider this:

In the A/B/C model, A creates gold on the map. B is neutral, C consumes the gold created.

Due to the nature of this reward structure alone, gold is necessary to compensate for the fact that these items modify your income stream. In theory, we could make killing wards not grant gold, but... why? That's just unsatisfying.
Except for the satisfaction of removing the enemy's vision.


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Waffles Inc

Senior Member

09-15-2013

Posting a small section of my big essay from this thread: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...php?p=40166831

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffles Inc View Post
I think that Sightstone provides a glimpse of the way wards could work in the future: a range of various items that share the Ghost Ward UNIQUE Active, each providing differing stats and differing ward capabilities. The shared UNIQUE Active means support players are not obligated to buy more than one of these items. Controlling what stats are and are not included on such items would provide appropriate item-slot costs for non-support classes that want these items, meaning you won’t see five Sightstones every match, but you’ll probably see more than one character on the team pick up a Ghost Ward item. Alongside this change, you would remove Sight Wards and Vision Wards from the shop entirely.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

09-15-2013
15 of 15 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarlSagansCosmos View Post
Is this assuming wards can no longer be bought or are they still available?

How many wards does option A offer?
I would assume that wards can still be bought in this model. Perhaps with some basic limits so that supports can't spend all of their gold on warding.


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Oakshrian

Senior Member

09-15-2013

I think Sight Stone should be removed and replaced with a g/10 item that builds into nothing (except maybe a slightly better version of this with some CDR or more HP on it) that has an active that drops an INVULNERABLE ward that lasts 90 seconds and has a 90 second CD to place.

Upgraded version could be two 90s wards at a time with a recharge time of 60 seconds per ward or one 180 second ward.

Other items like ward revealing items or CV-esque effects could be added so the use of actual wards bought at the store is less excessive and proper skill can allow a support to survive on their 1 unkillable ward + tactical CV's for most of their vision with extra ward buys being bought with the explicit intent for gaining bush/objective control.

Wards and Oracles need to be less necessary in this game.

The game would be a lot healthier with less vision available but a small amount of vision that cannot be denied to them. It would lead to more specific decision directed gameplay instead of WARD ALL THE THINGS.

Another cool thing could be a reasonably sized range of free vision around the dragon pit awarded to the team that slays dragon that lasts for 5 minute (1 minute less than his spawn time).

This could also be added to Baron.


This would create some more direct battles over vision that aren't JUST about vision.


Though "watch towers" being added to both rivers that can be channel-captured like in dominion might be worth exploring; similar to most SC2 maps.


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Basil van Yhun

Senior Member

09-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I would assume that wards can still be bought in this model. Perhaps with some basic limits so that supports can't spend all of their gold on warding.
Does this mean that removing the classic 75 gold Ward is off the table? I actually liked the idea because really, that's like the only way to stop Supports from pumping all their gold into consumables without weird and clunky rules. Together with your idea of a "vision slot" that allows for small wards and with Sightstone it could work out.

People might be concerned that this would make ganking too easy but really, you can't ward efficiently against the likes of Lee Sin or Zac anyway, might as well reduce the costs to this futile attempt.