Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Daltina

Junior Member

09-13-2013

Skill shots should not reveal the champion because they may not hit, but targeted attacks should. It's too easy otherwise. Nunu's ult shouldn't reveal him though because, technically, it is a skill shot and may not hit anyone. It's also pretty hard to land unless in a team fight, so not being able to see it in brush gives it a needed advantage, especially in leaning phase.


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yobweja

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Senior Member

09-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlecop View Post
I made a couple of videos on the subject of broken sight in bushes, mainly just us finding spots where you could not be see by wards.
A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37a-faE3fiI
B: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnibJ-a1MC0 (it's almost 20 mins x-x)
bump for these broken ass bushes


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Captain Alejo

Senior Member

09-13-2013

Abilities in Brush

I would like to say that no skills should reveal you from the brush. I am attacking from a hidden location, so why should the enemy see me? But when I consider this in conjunction with how I feel about auto attacks not revealing champions it becomes less straight forward. Being able to auto attack from the brush without giving vision would be incredibly oppressive in most scenarios.

A better sense of consistency with what reveals you from brush would enhance the clarity of brush as a gameplay mechanic. I know that skill shots generally don't reveal you from brush, but targeted abilities often do. I would prefer it that no skills reveal you from the brush, or all skills reveal you from the brush.

The most important part of brush for me is the surprise factor. If we are still able get off surprise attacks from the brush that surprise factor will still be satisfied for me.

What if we trade away some of that surprise factor when we attack? Right now, you aren't revealed if you throw a skill shot from the brush, but what if you did reveal a bit about your location? Rather than reveal the player entirely, what if the brush highlights where you are without explicitly revealing you?

The grass shakes vigorously for a second where you stand after firing off a skill shot. If you move within this time period the grass highlights your trail. This could possibly be emphasized with some sort of color change to the grass.

This could even be considered for the use of any ability in the brush to highlight where the player is. This already happens with certain champions, most notably Sona. If she heals you from the brush, you know exactly where she was when she hit the heal button, but after that you no longer know. She has to trade some of her surprise advantage in order to heal.

In the famous Nunu example, what if while charging Absolute Zero the brush shakes tremendously in that area to offer a cue to users. It still gives Nunu a huge element of surprise as the enemy team cannot know he is in the brush, but attentive players can react when they see that something is going on in the brush ahead.

Currently, attentive players will notice a slow debuff as they approach the brush. With a visual cue from the brush they would still have similar notice. In this case, however, it would be a more fair and consistent cue as it is deliberate.

General Vision

I'd really like to see an improvement in how wards work. I posted this in another thread regarding support changes, but it may get more mileage here.

Original:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...2#post41436033

tl;dr: Wards should show me what they will see before I put them down. This way I can further optimize my placement for what I actually want/expect.


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Captain Alejo

Senior Member

09-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlecop View Post
I made a couple of videos on the subject of broken sight in bushes, mainly just us finding spots where you could not be see by wards.
A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37a-faE3fiI
B: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnibJ-a1MC0 (it's almost 20 mins x-x)
Thanks for taking the time to record these. I've had a lot of trouble with that for a long time. I just rarely see this happen in a controlled scenario.

I think in cases like the tribrush, that area can be labeled as contiguous since that's the impression it gives to users. That way if you are in a subsection of a region considered contiguous, or ward a subsection of it, you have vision over all of it. That way we still have the flexibility to avoid that behavior in areas like the banana brush near mid lay.

I just want to be able to ward an area and be sure that it is warded. There has to be a way to know that there is a part of that brush I cannot currently see.


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Yakaru

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Senior Software Engineer

09-13-2013
21 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlecop View Post
I made a couple of videos on the subject of broken sight in bushes, mainly just us finding spots where you could not be see by wards.
A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37a-faE3fiI
B: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnibJ-a1MC0 (it's almost 20 mins x-x)
Thanks for making these excellent videos Battlecop, I've handed them off to QA to make sure we make test cases for all these as I fix the various vision issues.
Also, if I may ask everyone here give props to BC for doing a quick skype with me to help me try to reproduce some of these that were giving me trouble.

Here's a rough battle plan for what I've got going on right now:
Phase 1: I put in the 'cleaned up' vision code. This is a sanity check, players should notice no changes
Phase 2: I clean up 'universal' bugs (invisible skill shots, bad brush vision, etc.)
Phase 3+: I look into adding new capabilities or fundamental rule changes (brush revealed indicators, core rule changes, etc.)

I'm hoping for these phases to happen between season 3 and 4, as that's an ideal time to do these sorts of changes.


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RubenatorX

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Member

09-13-2013

I just spent a good hour catching up on these videos and reddit. It's problems like these that make me want to work at riot. It makes me giddy haha. Yay for computer science!
Excellent work Yakaru. Legacy code is no fun haha.


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Kelhan

Senior Member

09-13-2013

I thought gimmicks like these were removed: http://www.twitch.tv/rflegendary/c/2891145


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Yakaru

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Senior Software Engineer

09-13-2013
22 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelhan View Post
I thought gimmicks like these were removed: http://www.twitch.tv/rflegendary/c/2891145
That bug can't be addressed until my clean up is in, sadly. It's on the list though.


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Sigma117

Senior Member

09-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'd actually really like that change. Some sort of, "Recently attacked you from brush, is revealed while within that brush."

I think the current global "you're revealed right now" particle (Nidalee, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw) is okay. It's not used so often that it would overlap itself much, but the particle is pretty intuitive, especially since it is used in other parts of the game.
I'm against that idea. The current "you're revealed right now" icon feels like it should only be applied when the enemy can see you for the duration. If you applied it to brush vision, then hitting jungle minions would apply the icon, which would create a fair bit of confusion. (Say I hit a Nid trap, then go onto a buff, I wouldn't know when Nids vision wears off)


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YokoZar

Member

09-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
That bug can't be addressed until my clean up is in, sadly. It's on the list though.
That bug also applies to Caitlyn traps, btw.