Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

First Riot Post
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FlashRebelJr

Senior Member

08-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raincall View Post
Then why ult in a bush in the first place? the whole purpose of ulting in a bush is having it already half channeled when the enemy first notices, otherwise he would just stay away. Revealing anything would destroy that play forever.

Also, you're talking about it as if that play was overpowered when it can be interrupted by almost every champion. This is nonsense and overcatering for new players. The game will have a hard time keeping players if they start doing stupid things like this.



I will definitely quit too, it's not hard to see where the game is going if they make changes like that.

What will be next? revealing assassins all the time because they burst you down too easily if you step into a bush? I wouldn't be surprised considering what you did to Rengar. Where is the limit? I certainly won't be here for that.

Lately Riot has been trying too hard to find 'broken' aspects of the game, it feels forced. Instead of trying to innovate they release a bunch of skins to keep old players happy and proceed to dumb down the game a little more. Rinse and repeat.
Then go play Dota, you will definitely love getting sniped from nowhere or having your whole team die to a global-ranged AoE ultimate that nothing will warn you about ! If you really want LoL to become like this, don't even waste your time, Riot is not crazy enough to implement mechanics with zero counterplay. Or maybe they sould reduice Nunu's channel time if they really want to reveal his area of effect when he is hidden, then this would not be a total nerf. You are only crying without trying to make any good suggestion.

And this is ridiculous to talk about Rengar when talking about needless nerfs to non broken mechanics : his OPness was not a pure invention from Riot, he was definitely broken, he had at the same time a big burst of damage, tankiness, sustain and high mobility, then he needed his nerf. Now, he is on the razor's edge, but this is better than broken anyway.


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Raincall

Senior Member

08-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashRebelJr View Post
Then go play Dota, you will definitely love getting sniped from nowhere or having your whole team die to a global-ranged AoE ultimate that nothing will warn you about ! If you really want LoL to become like this, don't even waste your time, Riot is not crazy enough to implement mechanics with zero counterplay. Or maybe they sould reduice Nunu's channel time if they really want to reveal his area of effect when he is hidden, then this would not be a total nerf. You are only crying without trying to make any good suggestion.

And this is ridiculous to talk about Rengar when talking about needless nerfs to non broken mechanics : his OPness was not a pure invention from Riot, he was definitely broken, he had at the same time a big burst of damage, tankiness, sustain and high mobility, then he needed his nerf. Now, he is on the razor's edge, but this is better than broken anyway.
Funny how you consider and believe that Nunu's ult has no counterplay, Morello surely has brainwashed a lot of you with that bulls.hit. It has come down to a point where they could convince you of anything and you would blindly believe them. I'm not gonna explain why Nunu's ult is far from having no counterplay even when cast inside a bush. Go find it out for yourself or watch some high elo game.
When I mentioned Rengar I was talking about his rework and completely removal of his stealth, making of him another generic bruiser. And no, he is far from broken.
Go on supporting these things, one day you will find yourself playing always the same way, even with different champions. Maybe then you will understand why these decisions are wrong and tend to homogenize an already homogeneous game.

After all we are talking about the same Riot that was close to removing ward jumping from the game.


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Fawar

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Senior Member

08-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawar View Post
Personnaly, I find it unintuitive that some spell reveal you and some other does not. Everytime you will need to learn and remember which are dangerous to use and which are not and well this isn't not 'real' enough.

Here is my idea, but for it to be understood properly here is some context.

What are Brushes?

To me it's tall grass, jungle type with similar dynamic to Corn fields.

What does that mean to me?

Simply that when you enter the Corn Field(CF)/Brushes, you are visibile at the begining and when you get a little deeper, you disappear. It also means that when something is shoot from inside the CF/Brushes you should not see from where it came nor from whom. All you would see is what happened, IE Explosion, AOE, Aura but not the shooter. Which is not always true, let's say you get close to the brushes/CF without being in it. You will see a bit in it or, you will see who's shooting at you from the sides of the brushes (Someone could enter, go deep, go back to the side sneaked and you would not see him, but when he starts shooting is not deep enough not to be seen)


Now that you have the idea explained, here is how I would add it to LoL.

Entering the brushes

There would be a fading over 1-2 sec to disappear in it. It would not be automatic has it is now.
This would make juking by entering the brush undoable and would make a chase, a chase, not some kind of sorcery.


Skillshot,SpellShot,AOE, Ranged Auto-Attack, Passive (Lulu's), Runaan's hurricane

The caster/shooter would not be reveal on those actions. The actions itself would be displayed at all time. Each of thoses actions would have some kind of revealing radius. Exemple : Brand cast his Pillar of Flame in the brushes, it would reveal what is in it and a bit on the edge of it not the brush entirely. AOE actions would have a proportionaly revealing radius and target action would have either target revealing or smaler/really smaler revealing.

Sides revealing

I was talking about depth earlier on, to me if the champion is near the edge of the brush while being inside it should be reveal when shooting anything OUTSIDE OF THE BRUSH, if it's in there is no reason to reveal him following the logic I talked about earlier on. Once reaveal, there would be the entering fading triggering.

AURAS

To me auras have visual effects on the champions receiving it. It would then be wrong to not display it because the aura's caster is in a brush. It would also be a sell-off for supports and jungler ganking or anyone using one while being in a brush. I was thinking about adding an effect to ward which would negate aura in their vision range?


Melee moves/autoattacks

Are you a fighter or not? Autoreaveal on every of those actions + triggering the entering brush effect.

Linked spells

I will explain this part by comparing Leblanc's etheral chains/Blitz's grab to Skarner's impale which are exactly the same to me.
If range is long, it would reveal the link but not the champion. IE Skarner would reveal himself only because he is close to his target, while blitz and leblanc would only reveal their arm/chain. There is a bit more to it. If blitz or leblanc would be near the edges of the brush, it would reveal them has if they were firing at skill/spell shot has discussed earlier and triggering the entering fading effect.


That would cover brushes mecanics to me, but I would like them to be less static.

I would like them to be dynamic and reacts to what is happening.

Brushes being trampled

I think that brushes should feel the fact that it is being walked on too much. Let's take Alistar. Big fat minautor moving back and forth in the brush. To me those should at some point be trampled and not hide anyone anymore. It would allow some new play has brush hiding's denial and brush hiding being limited at some point. Once trampled it would trigger the regrowing of those brushes, there could also be an item to instantly regrow it. Charge skills like hecarim would auto-trample the brushes. Also, the bigger the champion the faster it tramples the brushes. Brushes could be partially trampled and not fully trampled every single time.

Brushes being destroyed

Same has being trampled, but it would happen because of destructive spells like Brand's pillar. IMO it should also be able to catch in fire and be extinguished with water spells (nami's ult?) It would trigger a longer regrow has the brushes is destroyed and not trampled.

Brushes being knocked back

For the duration of the skill it would be some how pushed back (Crop Symbol like). Talking about Janna's tornado, ult and simmilar skills.

Brushes regrowing
Over a period of time the brushes would regros and reactivate it's hiding skill.

Brushes dimensions

With those adjustments I think some brushes would need to be bigger or have different forms.

What do you think summoners?

anyone has any comments or idea over this proposition? I know it's long but I kind of though about it for a while :S


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Lilsimp

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Junior Member

08-29-2013

Dont remove empire!


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CS3Narutoi

Senior Member

08-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashRebelJr View Post
I guess you absolutely got it and summarized everything quite well.

Another great change (I already suggested this before) and that is quite simple (or I hope so) : considering that a skillshot is visible when the middle of its model gets into vision of the enemy, not when it is entirely into vision, because this is extremly frustrating to get hit by some totally invisible attacks (especially with Nidalee and Caitlyn, I stopped counting how many times they could hit me while I couldn't see anything coming or even hitting me). And even, if it is not enough, make skillshots visible when any bit of their hitbox is out of the fog of war.

I also agree for Nunu's ult : there is absolutely nothing visible, even when you are already slowed to hell.
Thanks for reading my post.

I agree that it definitely is frustrating when getting hit by invisible stuff. Skill shots fired from the Brush or Fog of War should not be invisible. Like you've suggested, I think the skill shots should become visible once they leave the Brush/Fog of War.
I hope Riot cleans this up...

As for the Nunu discussion, here is my opinion:
- When playing as Nunu or Nunu is on your team, it is very fun and satisfying to catch opponents off guard, sometimes turning a chase around by running into a brush to ult, grabbing a few kills.
- When playing against Nunu, I sometimes feel frustrated because he gets to have a free channel and damage us when we can't even see him or attack him while he's in the brush.

By the way, players who have decent amount of experience with Nunu should probably have ways to counter Nunu's brush ult.
Whenever I chase a Nunu and he runs into a brush, I either bring a ward with me so I can ward the brush and attack him, or be extra aware of suddenly being slowed so I can back off.
When in the jungle or near brush, be aware for random slows that you can't see, so you can back off from his ult.


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FlashRebelJr

Senior Member

08-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raincall View Post
Funny how you consider and believe that Nunu's ult has no counterplay, Morello surely has brainwashed a lot of you with that bulls.hit. It has come down to a point where they could convince you of anything and you would blindly believe them. I'm not gonna explain why Nunu's ult is far from having no counterplay even when casted inside a bush. Go find it out for yourself or watch some high elo game.
When I mentioned Rengar I was talking about his rework and completely removal of his stealth, making of him another generic bruiser. And no, he is far from broken.
Go on supporting these things, one day you will find yourself playing always the same way, even with different champions. Maybe then you will understand why these decisions are wrong and tend to homogenize an already homogeneous game.

After all we are talking about the same Riot that was close to removing ward jumping from the game.
At least it is not a game where every character has to build the same way, where even casters have to improve their autoattacks when their spells start to suck because they have nothing else than spell ranks to increase their spell damage and some pretty good ways exist to mitigate spell damage, where even DPS characters have to build tanky as hell because DPS items suck really hard, and where just one team of well chosen characters will win absolutely every match !

But still, LoL is homogenized and bland, and all champions are exactly the same, this is why no one has ever tried to innovate gameplay. Wait...


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Yisery

Junior Member

08-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawar View Post
anyone has any comments or idea over this proposition? I know it's long but I kind of though about it for a while :S
It is an interesting thought but hard to implement in LoL as is now. Brushes are considered the insta-stealth save zone they represent, they allow a lot of play and counterplay and are a key part on every lane and in the jungle.

However, not seeing others inside the brush is pretty deadly, but interesting at the same time. Basically a minimum required distance to see one another.
Thinking about it, the "I can't see you, you can't see me, unless we are next to each other" idea sounds really fun. The only things that would work here or deal damage are skillshots and can allow for a lot of gameplay in terms of "targetted vs. skillshot" matchups. Adding sight wards within brushes could add additional aspects, e.g. allowing autoattacks and targetted abilities despite usually not being able to see the other one in the brush. Skillshot particles and ranged autoattacks should then be visible in your sight radius only, which could be indicated by an oracle-similar range indicator.

The main problem: How would you know that you are completely invisible? Especially when entering and leaving a brush, this would be hard to know as is now with just the model being a little more transparent.

All in all: Really interesting idea, but would require much testing and tweaks since it is completely new gameplay. And it's a pretty huge change, players would have to adopt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
I'm actually quite familiar with the issue you describe as I touched that part of the game just recently and in fact caused the behavior change you request. We changed it back (my current changes are to fix bugs, not change behavior), but this would be very doable if everyone agrees this is preferable
Yes, please make the action-reveal override direct sight in brushes, meaning the attacker would always be revealed as long as you have vision on the position he is. Best example is immediately after leaving the brush the attacker is in.


But I'm here for another issue that's kinda weird, even though logical:
There are several round-shaped (or banana-shaped brushes), especially the lane brushes. If you e.g. place a sight or vision ward at the very border of the on side of the left bot lane brush (for example) you would not be able to see what's at the very border on the other side of the very same brush because there is a "no-brush" gap inbetween. This is a logical thing if you thing about it, but the case itself is really rare and can create false assumptions like "there is nobody in the brush, we're safe -- just WHERE did that guy come from? we had sight on the brush". I experienced this a few times already.


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Fawar

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Senior Member

08-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yisery View Post
The main problem: How would you know that you are completely invisible? Especially when entering and leaving a brush, this would be hard to know as is now with just the model being a little more transparent.
I would add a Brush aura with a CD, when it's on CD you are still seeable, when it's done it disappear and your are stealth. Something like passive poison effect from teemo or singed but for stealthing.

Another idea would be a white-outline around the champion, has it would not be clearer to the summoner without having to look at his passive auras. Starting black and getting to white over the fading process. (White meaning active, black unactive)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yisery View Post
It is an interesting thought but hard to implement in LoL as is now. Brushes are considered the insta-stealth save zone they represent, they allow a lot of play and counterplay and are a key part on every lane and in the jungle.

However, not seeing others inside the brush is pretty deadly, but interesting at the same time. Basically a minimum required distance to see one another.
Thinking about it, the "I can't see you, you can't see me, unless we are next to each other" idea sounds really fun. The only things that would work here or deal damage are skillshots and can allow for a lot of gameplay in terms of "targetted vs. skillshot" matchups. Adding sight wards within brushes could add additional aspects, e.g. allowing autoattacks and targetted abilities despite usually not being able to see the other one in the brush. Skillshot particles and ranged autoattacks should then be visible in your sight radius only, which could be indicated by an oracle-similar range indicator.

The main problem: How would you know that you are completely invisible? Especially when entering and leaving a brush, this would be hard to know as is now with just the model being a little more transparent.

All in all: Really interesting idea, but would require much testing and tweaks since it is completely new gameplay. And it's a pretty huge change, players would have to adopt.

Thank you for your input, really appreciated.
I know the brushes are not implementated that way but the question was asked by the senior software engineer looking to make things more intuitive and easier to play while being more fun. Studying has a software engineer, I can say that it is doable, how hard will it be depends on how they structured their code.


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Cloner Stive

Member

09-09-2013

I think it would be nice to have better feed back of when I am / am not revealed. As it works not, I have no idea if my chains are showing off my pretty face, or if that mystic shot lights me up. If I hit somebody after I shoot it am I still hidden? I have no idea.

Inb4 skype with a friend

That's suboptimal at best :P

Could give me an aura (similar to creep agro outline) when I show myself and so I can also know how long that lasts.

Edit: Additionally, I'm not sure if emotes like laugh can be heard from the brush. Seems like a simple question, but I've found no definitive answer for it, not even on the LoL wiki for brush. Seems the mechanics' specifics are not very well explained explicitly. :P


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Battlecop

Junior Member

09-13-2013

I made a couple of videos on the subject of broken sight in bushes, mainly just us finding spots where you could not be see by wards.
A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37a-faE3fiI
B: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnibJ-a1MC0 (it's almost 20 mins x-x)