@Lyte Referencing "Teamwork OP"

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Lyte

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Lead Social Systems Designer

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09-12-2013
7 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coredor View Post
These results are still bias though. You can manipulate the controls of what chat is required to be considered 'sportsmanlike' so that it matches up with higher wins.

In your last two examples that still doesn't show anything more than correlation. I want to know what controls you used. Because from here it seems like your jobs all depend on your research yielding tangible results and therefore the majority of you are biasing the tests.
Just to clarify a quick point, none of our jobs are dependent on the research yielding tangible results. We were doing research for solutions related to Champion Select, and some of the data were interesting enough we wanted to share it early. As a game designer for example, my main responsibility is designing cool features that make the game more fun--we didn't have to do a video at all nor did anyone at Riot ask us to.


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Lead Death

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Senior Member

09-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pudge1cup View Post
I laughed out loud at that 'stat' as well.

It's incredible that these unfounded conclusions are being presented as facts

*cough eveloution *cough


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InubashiriMomiji

Senior Member

09-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post
Just to clarify a quick point, none of our jobs are dependent on the research yielding tangible results. We were doing research for solutions related to Champion Select, and some of the data were interesting enough we wanted to share it early. As a game designer for example, my main responsibility is designing cool features that make the game more fun--we didn't have to do a video at all nor did anyone at Riot ask us to.
Can we get a sneak peek of some of the specific issues that you are attempting to tackle? I don't mind if you don't want to talk about what you're doing specifically, since that's understandably not ready, but I'd like to have your input on what you find to be the most troublesome part or most rage-inducing part of playing or attempting to play this game. Personally, I have no problems from where I am in the game but specifically, I'd like to confirm that there are much stronger correlations of rage at lower Elo and, possibly, what specifically is the cause and perhaps the solution to that cause.


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Mirror

Senior Member

09-12-2013

The only thing I found mildly dull/irritating about the video was the redundancy of the stats. The video can be summed up thusly:

1) Positive players win more games than negative players!
2) Negative players have a reduced chance of victory.
3) Positive players lead to more success during a game, like more gold earned.
4) Players who are consistently positive win more games than players who are consistently negative.

I know there are some things that make sense to share at any given time, and some trends that are still "cooking," or that are interesting but don't really make sense for the topic being presented, or that you simply don't feel like sharing because it's sensitive. I was just bored and bothered by how the last 75% of this cool, 2D-animated, Riv-voiced video was spent inverting/rewording the main idea.


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T Jiyeon

Senior Member

09-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot NeuroCat View Post
I wish I could help give you a more detailed explanation of these statistics, but I came in towards the end of the analysis which produced the results cited in the video. As Lyte said, we're working on more really cool teamwork-related analyses, so when the time comes, perhaps I can shed some light on those results.

However, when presenting our cool findings, one thing we have to consider is the target audience. Coming from academia, I'm all for transparency and clarity of results, but our target audience is players, not academics. What would be more interesting for the average player to consume - a multipage wall of text or a high-quality animated video? Even though we don't deep dive into the stats in the video, we definitely consider the appropriate controls and confounds when running the inital analyses that generate the results.

to be honest I'd love to read a "research paper" that you guys can write up, I think it will be interesting to read


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Wertilq

Senior Member

09-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte View Post


A lot of players may question the data, and that's very cool. I love being challenged and challenging other scientists to improve the quality bar of research in the video game industry. It's unfair for players to accuse the scientists on staff of fabricating data, or being so incompetent that they don't know the difference between a correlation versus a causal effect--the team here is a strong team, and they are far more critical than the average scientist in academia. In fact, many meetings are held just to debate the rigor of the data and whether we're being responsible and specifically not ever doing simple marketing spins on numbers.
What I question more than the data is how the data is PRESENTED. I do have very high expectations of behavior team though. I expect it to adhere to a science standard, and with that reference all its data. I do believe you guys have the data, but you need to somehow reference it.


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Wertilq

Senior Member

09-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riot NeuroCat View Post
However, when presenting our cool findings, one thing we have to consider is the target audience. Coming from academia, I'm all for transparency and clarity of results, but our target audience is players, not academics. What would be more interesting for the average player to consume - a multipage wall of text or a high-quality animated video? Even though we don't deep dive into the stats in the video, we definitely consider the appropriate controls and confounds when running the inital analyses that generate the results.
This is what made me angry with the video. You assume the players are dumb, and oversimplified things. Best would be something inbetween easy accessible but still correct and with depth. The video is a bit like "LoL for Kids: Raging is bad", it's demeaning to not give the full picture to us, just because you assume we can't read academia, or understand scientific things.

While you're probably right most players wont be able to read and enjoy the presentation in form of a 60 pages scientific paper, and will like an animation more, I also believe you peeled it down too much, and with that lost important information. It would be possible to make an animation that feels like "LoL for Adult people: Science behind raging, and why raging is bad".


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Sir Snicklefritz

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Senior Member

09-13-2013

Lyte, are you watching the change in behaviors after each information release? I would guess there might be a change in some behavior for at least a short amount of time. Just curious if this is on your radar.


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t0ss

Senior Member

09-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wertilq View Post
What I question more than the data is how the data is PRESENTED. I do have very high expectations of behavior team though. I expect it to adhere to a science standard, and with that reference all its data. I do believe you guys have the data, but you need to somehow reference it.
Christ you people are dense. They already explained the reasoning, and they are 100% correct. Would it be cool to get to read a nice written article for some of us? Yes. But you're seriously kidding yourself if you think that the majority of the player base would even check references, or read an essay. People are always on Riot's case about time management, yet you expect them to draft and write a full essay about the study for maybe 5% of millions of players? Come on. Amazing the things some of you find to ***** about.


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IlIlIlIIIIIIllll

Senior Member

09-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nidalee View Post
What controls were put in place to ensure the lack of raging was causing won games, instead of the statistics being skewed by the fact people are less likely to rage in games where they're winning?

What I mean is this: 54% is a pretty low number relative to the baseline of 50%. So if you say that games with no ragers win 54% of the time, I would point out that perhaps it's just the fact the games are already being won and so people have no excuse to rage.

I'm not saying "fighting fire with fire" is ever a good method, and I'm appreciative of the point you're putting across as it will makes games more enjoyable for sure, but how statistically valid is that number we've all seen?
Lyte is not known for his super scientific methods.

I doubt he even knows how to use stats except to misleadingly bolster "it's working as intended"