Revive and Dominion

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ManWolfAxeBoss

QA Analyst

09-11-2013
1 of 2 Riot Posts

Hey all,

Opening up a discussion here regarding the Revive summoner spell on Dominion and want to hear your thoughts on a couple different things.

1. What does it do well? (ex - Let's me fight more)
2. What are Revives weaknesses? (ex - Long cooldown makes me feel like I'm playing with only one summoner spell)
3. What are Revive's high moments? (ex - I got ganked bot, revived, came back and picked up a double kill)
4. What would you like to see done differently about the spell and/or its corresponding mastery Summoner's Insight? (ex - I want to see more Movespeed upon reviving and the HP boost lasts too long)
5. How do you feel about removing the spell completely? (ex - Everyone would run Exhaust/Garrison)

We've been thinking about some potential changes to Dominion (like adding a speed boost at the nexus) and want to figure out how Revive fits into the larger picture.

And feel free to include any other thoughts you have regarding Revive.


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ViolentlyCar

Senior Member

09-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
1. What does it do well? (ex - Let's me fight more)
The best spells on maps are the ones that mitigate the worst outcomes. On SR, flash helps you avoid dying early game so your lane doesn't snowball out of control, and it lets you secure kills so you can start the snowball. It has other uses, but that's the one that really solidifies it as a 10/10 pick in most games. Revive works the same way - the worst thing that can happen is that you're not able to help control objectives. The most common reason for this is because you're dead. The movement speed is a big part of this, and the bonus health is basically a cherry on top that makes revive non-optional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
2. What are Revives weaknesses? (ex - Long cooldown makes me feel like I'm playing with only one summoner spell)
I consider it a weakness that it forces you to constantly hit tab to see if people are reviving. This can really interrupt the flow in a fight and makes it a pain. I wish it displayed a global notification when someone uses it (like it does in Dota 2).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
3. What are Revive's high moments? (ex - I got ganked bot, revived, came back and picked up a double kill)
Well, not having to take a little break when you die feels nice. Being able to secure an objective off revive also feels nice. However, this goes the other way; winning a fight only to have your work be undone by revives feels kinda crummy, especially if you don't realize they're coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
4. What would you like to see done differently about the spell and/or its corresponding mastery Summoner's Insight? (ex - I want to see more Movespeed upon reviving and the HP boost lasts too long)
If you really want it to be part of the mode, I'd prefer to see it built in and mandatory for everyone. Seeing people not take revive is really painful and it pretty much guarantees you're losing the windmill fight. I also think it shouldn't give any bonus health. The bonus health is power without gameplay to the highest degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
5. How do you feel about removing the spell completely? (ex - Everyone would run Exhaust/Garrison)
I'd be open to trying it, but I remember trying some reviveless inhouses and it made defending way, way, way too easy. I would also rather see revive over either exhaust or garrison because I think those spells are way more annoying. (Exhaust because it basically turns your champ off for 2.5 seconds and garrison because the defensive form basically undoes an entire attack [the offensive form is fine.])


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Weegee7

Senior Member

09-11-2013

Revive is fun to use so I'd be sad if it was removed. But is there anything that you could do to reduce the cooldown?


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Sancitu

Member

09-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
Hey all,

Opening up a discussion here regarding the Revive summoner spell on Dominion and want to hear your thoughts on a couple different things.

1. What does it do well? (ex - Let's me fight more)
2. What are Revives weaknesses? (ex - Long cooldown makes me feel like I'm playing with only one summoner spell)
3. What are Revive's high moments? (ex - I got ganked bot, revived, came back and picked up a double kill)
4. What would you like to see done differently about the spell and/or its corresponding mastery Summoner's Insight? (ex - I want to see more Movespeed upon reviving and the HP boost lasts too long)
5. How do you feel about removing the spell completely? (ex - Everyone would run Exhaust/Garrison)

We've been thinking about some potential changes to Dominion (like adding a speed boost at the nexus) and want to figure out how Revive fits into the larger picture.

And feel free to include any other thoughts you have regarding Revive.
1) - For me the main (only) use is 3 spots - 1) the very beginning fight over top, if its a lost cause i can charge bot and force a reaction almost all the time, 2) mid game ish when defending bot lane primarily, if you can force revive and keep yours it puts you in a fantastic position that often makes their team have to commit someone to gank it. 3) Late game on those down to the wire games and you have to defend the 3 points you have because both teams have 20 health. This can be pretty vital against those long aoe cd teams that zerg bottom and just blow you up, revive helps save the day tremendously.

2 -For me its the fact that dominion can get pretty one sided at times for a while, and during these phases or games revive is basically worthless, no point into rushing out just to die to a 4 stuns team. (and being down a flash or ignite or exhaust can make or break a quick kill to relieve pressure on the tower) The cooldown does seem a bit long, but its fine. I feel if it was shorter then it would lopside a lot of bot lane especially for champs with longer ult cooldowns. It promotes smart play, but it can lead to cases where i realize i keep waiting to use it optimally, and never end up using it until the very end. The other main issue i have with revive is that it feels pretty forced to take, kinda like barrier in aram. Ive noticed as ive won more games, literally everyone on both teams always has revive. Makes me wonder what % of players overall have revive as a spell.

3) Your example is pretty spot on, it feels so good sometimes to know i forced their revive, had to pop mine and then come back to defend my spot and capture theirs. One of the few places in dominion where i feel like i can really outplay someone, by making judgement calls on trying to force it. Its also nice because it can help reduce boredom on a long death timer, and most of the appeal of dominion is in the faster pace of play.

4) I personally feel like its pretty balanced. Its one of those spells where even a small change would make it even more OP or totally useless all at once. I would kind of like to see a AP/AD/armor/MR boost that lasted until after your first CHAMPION combat to help fight back when being heavily pressured, one of the only ways i can think of to make it possibly a little less useless at times and a little better for revive protections against a 2v1.

5) I have no idea how i would feel about that. On one hand i feel its bad that its a near mandatory spell, but its part of this game mode. I also never even looked at how strong the spell could be until dominion, and there are trade offs to make. (exhaust ignite can be pretty nasty on someone like talon). But on the other hand, i like choices, and this one can actually change a game and promote smart choices like garrison can, which i find a sorely lacking thing with exhaust or ignite which just get popped pretty much constantly .


/TLDR

Edit: One crazy idea could be to just build in revive to the game mode itself. Make it like a 1 or 2 use a game thing with a 2 min cooldown between uses.


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Akirax13

Junior Member

09-11-2013

1. What does it do well?

It allows us to help in the fight in the beginning for the third turret and gives us a chance for a comeback if there is a teamfight.

2. What are Revives weaknesses?

Revive in my opinion doesn't give a fast enough speed boost

3. What are Revive's high moments?

When the enemy team is capturing a turret on low health
having just killed you and you come back to kill them to stop the capture.

4. What would you like to see done differently about the spell and/or its corresponding mastery Summoner's Insight?

More movement speed for less health or no health

5. How do you feel about removing the spell completely?

It wouldn't be right because if most people take exhaust some champions would have a really hard time in dominion and would make dominion bad for some champions like riven.


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Stez007

Senior Member

09-11-2013

We? Who's we? I thought the Dom "team" was just you now

Anyway...

1. What does it do well? (ex - Let's me fight more)

It adds spikes of excitement to games. It allows players to take more risks at key points in the game, particularly the opening windmill fight, knowing they can be in the fight twice. It opens up a lot of different potential Bot laners, particularly ones that would otherwise be extremely prone to ganks, and it makes attacking the enemy mid and bot more difficult/makes your own mid and bot easier to defend.


2. What are Revives weaknesses? (ex - Long cooldown makes me feel like I'm playing with only one summoner spell)

Those are the two big weaknesses. The other would perhaps be its hit-or-miss attribute, in that you can either use it well or use it badly. Since you only get two or three uses in a match, the impact of each revive is huge and while using it well feels great, using it poorly feels like exactly what it is: wasting a valuable resource.

3. What are Revive's high moments? (ex - I got ganked bot, revived, came back and picked up a double kill)

Saving points, dying early in a teamfight only to come back and clean everything up, cleaning up a fight as mentioned and then using your status as "only one alive" to take a point alone.


4. What would you like to see done differently about the spell and/or its corresponding mastery Summoner's Insight? (ex - I want to see more Movespeed upon reviving and the HP boost lasts too long)

Honestly I don't think anything could be changed about it that'd make it non-mandatory. Even nerfing it to hell wouldn't do it; being not-dead is just way too valuable.

5. How do you feel about removing the spell completely? (ex - Everyone would run Exhaust/Garrison)

Despite the great feelings you get from well-used revives, I think removing it is the best option for the health of the game. Exhaust would be the next "mandatory" skill, though I don't think it'd be nearly as bad. Exhaust as everyone's mandatory spell wouldn't be nearly as game-changing as Revive, IMO. It's a short duration soft-ish CC on a moderate cooldown, not the end of the world I don't think. Hell, most people already run Exhaust.

As for the other slot, more than two Garrisons is usually a waste, and teams have been taking CV a lot more lately. Ignite is still strong bot lane due to how important the health relic is, and squishies without escapes still want Flash; some may even want Cleanse. I think overall the game would be a lot healthier without Revive.


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BeefJerkyHunter

Senior Member

09-11-2013

I really like revive and I also kind of like that it locks out one summoner spell.
I was already irritated enough with two summoner spells in Summoner's Rift, but one plus Revive seems rather nice.


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molokodude

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

09-11-2013

1. It's a reset. A literal do over if used well, and because map is so small it is a mini teleport. It also has a learning curve and teaching you to be aware of fights. Had far too many,"great I wasted my revive" which its huge when you do that to the enemy teams bottom laner.

2. That cooldown. If you even touch it, like 15 or 20 seconds would be k.

3. You summed it up actually.


4. Speedboost to last like half a second longer on use. Also fix the some debuffs still existing on use. (if it exists still like that)

5. Please no. Down. Bad riot. It counters out the very abuseive respawn timmers. When you even delay your first two caps for a mere 6 nexus health at start just for a quicker respawn for windmill round 2 thats saying something. It's painful to watch your timmer be at 20 seconds"k this is when I revive..oh wait no riot removed a game changer"
Would you remove the crazy sona flasha cresendo into ace you can get from SR?

It to me is like that same hype moment.


Just my scrub views thou. Also upon further talks mind if we get some poll soonish after general talks with options?


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Sakuri Ono

Senior Member

09-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
1. What does it do well? (ex - Let's me fight more)
Prevents Game Stagnation: Revive allows for more fluid and dynamic gameplay on a map as small as the Crystal Scar. Without it games would be significantly shorter on average and much more 'Surrender @ 5' in mindset. Due to the revive spawn timers you have a decent chance early on of being hit with a 20 second wait time to get back in the fight. If this so happens to coincide with a full team wipe that's easily a lost Mid and/or Bot to create a 4-5 cap about as easily as you currently see in the 'Revive vs Non-Revive' DD fights.

Keeps Bottom Lane 'Enjoyable': Want to know what bottom lane in Dominion becomes without Revive? SR's Jungle or Support Roles; something that a majority of players refuse to do simply because of the role having something inherently negative you have to endure to perform it. Imagine if you will, Dominion without Revive. What becomes the new mantra?

"The first bottom laner to die throws the game."

Take the 1v1 nature of the Bottom Lane meta, throw in the 'Gank Early/Gank Often' mentality; and you basically create a scenario where the entire game is likely determined by who ganks whose bottom first. Once bottom lane dies, without Revive, that bottom point is 'free'. Unless resources from top recall/respond to react to the enemy bottom laner rushing to take it. This creates two outcomes:

-Either one of your team reacts to stop the cap and creates a 3v4 up top.
-You give up bot for free in order to try and stop a 3v4 team-wipe up top.

Imagine how much bottom lane would suck in Solo Q if you're the one who got ganked first.
"GG; Bot lane sucks."
"Report bot lane please."

There would be so much pressure on that lane and so much toxicity directed at it that your average player would rather AFQuit than take the role on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
2. What are Revives weaknesses? (ex - Long cooldown makes me feel like I'm playing with only one summoner spell)
Revive Creates Snowballing: Despite the common conception; Dominion can snowball. And Revive is a major contributor to that. I've been on the receiving end of more than a few DD stomps to watch this phenomenon happen. Basically if you take two teams of moderately different skill, and Team A wins 3 teamfights against Team B in a row; Team B has no way to come back. This is because so many rapid team fights create enough of an EXP difference that Team A is now 1.5 levels ahead of Team B. If Team B couldn't win at equal levels; they can't at this higher difference. And with that advantange Team A can gank, farm minions briefly, or just win another team fight to secure a 2 level difference that will likely snowball into 3 or 4 before the match ends.

Revive is a major contributor to this because it enables that second rolling teamfight at the windmill. Without it not only is there a 0% chance of 'Double Aces' but the lost Windmill creates a minion lane where the losing team can actually defensively farm a few minions if needed to help make up for the gold/level difference from only a singular lost teamfight.

Revive Severely Punishes Poor Decision Making/No Revive Training Available: It's often said in match-ups where new teams take Revive that 'It doesn't matter if you have the spell if you don't know when to use it.' Revive has a massive cooldown timer and creates virtually zero advantage for being burned if you use it at the wrong time. Team just wiped? Windmill about to fall? Did you just burn revive with no backup? Well guess you just wasted a good chunk of your bonus HP timer for naught eh? So now you pretty much have one summoner spell for 9-ish minutes. Far more harsh than an accidental Flash burn.

This problem is amplified by there being no formal training for the Summoner Spell for new players to learn from. What I refer to is the poorly coded Dominion AI Bots. You want to know how to use Summoner Spells in SR? Play against Intermediate AI. Not only do they pick SSs fairly well but they'll use them with split second timing and to optimal extent whenever possible, especially for team fights. None of the Dominion Bots use Revive. And even if they did I doubt any of them would use it correctly. So players can't even learn about Revive through fundamental observation. (Usually they learn about it when some Revive-knowledge player drops into lower ELOs and screams at people for not taking it; as seen on many streams.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
3. What are Revive's high moments? (ex - I got ganked bot, revived, came back and picked up a double kill)
Emergency Bottom Lane Rescues
Global Ult + Revive + Enemy Wipe = Free Capture


Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
4. What would you like to see done differently about the spell and/or its corresponding mastery Summoner's Insight? (ex - I want to see more Movespeed upon reviving and the HP boost lasts too long)
Honestly I'm rather content with it as is. Any stronger and it becomes an auto-crusher in late game where a team who has been saving their revives can just LOL-stomp an enemy team at the right moment. Any weaker and you just amplify that 'punishment' I mentioned early to the point where low ELO will take Revive even less than it does now because of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManWolfAxeBoss View Post
5. How do you feel about removing the spell completely? (ex - Everyone would run Exhaust/Garrison)
I feel it would kill the mode. As stated above games would become too one sided and toxic since so much stress would surround Bottom Lane and those initial ganks.


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abzilla

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Senior Member

09-11-2013


1. What does it do well? (ex - Let's me fight more)


It's probably the best game saver out there when used correctly. When used at the right time, it could save that one node that secures your victory, or lets you push another node for the win.

2. What are Revives weaknesses? (ex - Long cooldown makes me feel like I'm playing with only one summoner spell)


It's really a 1 time spell. You would use it only once at the most opportune time for the reasons stated above. If you use it too early/too late, you're f'd with that crazy cooldown. Unlike all other summoner spells, it is the single most high risk spell in the game.

3. What are Revive's high moments? (ex - I got ganked bot, revived, came back and picked up a double kill)

Saving the node I was about to lose to win us the game. Honestly though, isn't that it's only purpose?

4. What would you like to see done differently about the spell and/or its corresponding mastery Summoner's Insight? (ex - I want to see more Movespeed upon reviving and the HP boost lasts too long)

Since its purpose is to go back into the fight quickly, I would like to have the mastery increase your movement bonus to 200% instead of increasing HP. The point of this spell is to use it specifically to go back into the fight ASAP, not AS POWERFUL AS POSSIBLE (APAP, Trademark Abzilla 2013), so the speed buff would get you there to fight again.

Since you can't buy homeguard in dominion this would make sense, and it wouldn't be overpowered because it's a 1 time ace in the hole spell with a 9-minute cooldown. This way Revive stays in the game as is, and for its intended purpose of going back to fight again ASAP. If you coming back to life means you would win that 1v2 fight then the HP buff is negligable, but if you needed yet more HP then really, you shouldn't be wasting Revive there.

High risk, high payout.

5. How do you feel about removing the spell completely? (ex - Everyone would run Exhaust/Garrison)


I think it'd be a shame to remove the spell. I think implementing the 200% to the Summoner's Insight would let this 9min cooldown spell really shine as an HRHP (Copyright Abzilla 2013 heh) game changer.

If it's removed then there's no other spell of such a great caliber other than Flash? In it's current state I never choose it and just go with other safer bets, but add the speed and bam, you got a winner right there!


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