Damnit Morello is revealing all of my secrets again...

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Lïght

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Junior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
*sharpens his claws a bit*

For those of you who missed it, I want to draw attention to this post.



These two systems have been the major project that Xypherous and I have been working on for the last 3-4 months. This has been a huge effort, in terms of collecting data, experimenting and generally playing mad scientist while attempting to preserve the core of what makes Summoner's Rift fun.

There's four huge topics here:
  • Jungle gold income
  • Support gold income
  • Support expenditures on warding
  • The effects of using wards to gain vision

Trying to hit all 4 cohesively in one point is madness, however, they are all HIGHLY interconnected. So while this thread is about the overlap between all four, expect to see breakout threads from myself or other designers discussing each topic individually to gather focused feedback.

For this post, I want to talk about the relationship between support income, warding and the problems these two systems are causing with each other:

What are the issues?

Supports
  • Supports are expected to not last hit, thus gaining no income
  • Supports are expected to shoulder most of the gold burden for purchasing wards
  • Supports are expected to roam the map and ward
  • Supports are expected to buy expensive activated items
  • Supports are expected to be effective without gold revenue
  • Supports are often tied to the Marksman carry
  • Supports never get to achieve an endgame fantasy due to losing all of their income to vision expenditures

Vision
  • Wards are necessary to protect the sanctity of laneing from persistent Jungler aggression
  • Wards are necessary to observe important locations and objective
  • Wards cost gold, from the character least equipped to afford them
  • Wards are the only option for revealing a specific area to move forward safely
  • Wards used in the previously mentioned way linger for a long time (3 minutes!!)
  • Wards are so important, players feel entitled to having the map warded without contributing

Wow! This is a lot!!

No kidding. This is not a small set of problems. So to kick off this discussion, help me out:
  • What do you think are the problems with support income?
  • How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)
  • If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
  • How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
  • Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
  • Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
  • Are the expectations on a support player too high?

X-Posted on EUW.
What I think riot should do is:
When a ward die, a percentage of money should return to the owner of the ward, but when someone from the opposing team kill off the ward they take your your ward money. Supports should have a way of making too instead of waiting to get gold per 10 items or rely on getting a kill for money.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

iainB85

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Is this going to be another thread where it has 200+ pages 8 months later and we are still waiting to see results? Really losing all faith in Riot at this point.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LightEcho

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Its a bit late in the night for me to weigh in on the entirety of the support gold/vision issues so let me express my biggest regret. At my level people ward lanes consistentyl, unfortunately at my level people almost never pink ward aside from bot, never call out wards that have been placed, and if questioned have no idea if the enemy even placed a ward to begin with.(did he walk back to lane with a ward come on guys do you even pay attention what people buy). As a jungler this makes ganking in my level of play pretty useless , after the lanes have backed once. Not sure how one would go about fixing this, but it always frustrates me aas a jungle main.
Then there are the people I play with in ranked(supports that buy sightstone and then NEVER PLACE A SINGLE WARD FROM IT).

Ofcourse the solution to that problem is to add consumable slots so I can buy wards lategame, when I have no slots free.

/endrant


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GhostyToast

Member

09-10-2013

this is gonna get buried but here it goes. i think the utility tree should be updated to help give support champions and junglers more advantages i mean moment speed is the last point really that seems kinda wasted i would like to see something like smite(the game) where if a champ gets a last hit if you are in the range for exp you get a percentage of gold this helps the support role and also make a gank that doesn't even end in damage at least somewhat bearable or something that takes a percentage of the price off items in the shop this could fix the support problem and the jungle thing i don't have any ideas sorry


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xelnath

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Systems Designer

09-10-2013
3 of 15 Riot Posts

Still reading through this. Between US and EU, this is a 200 page + thread.

Trends I am noticing:

* People feel the gold burden of supporting is too high
* People feel like others should participate in the vision game to some level
* People want items that better support playing in the vision game
* Some people are concerned about what happens to supports with a solid gold income
* Many support players feel they don't need a huge swing in incomes - just a reduction in non-permanent expenditures


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

john

Senior Member

09-10-2013

not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the answer, or part of it, seems obvious.

if you increase gold availability in the jungle, you incentivize jungler farming, which discourages jungler ganking, which decreases the need for wards until late game, which give supports less reason to buy wards and more reason to spend their gold on satisfying items.

tl;dr solving issue 1 will provide partial solutions towards issues 2 and 3


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GrandImperator

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
So to summarize:
  • You guys generally agree its unfair that supports both earn less and spend more
  • Think it might be fair if they earned equal amounts as laners but spent more on wards (relative to laners)
  • Are concerned that even if income was fixed, supports would still spend 100% of gold on wards
  • Feel that there's not enough interactions in the warding system right now
  • Believe we should look into ways to let non-supports get some vision in a way that doesn't restrict their item builds
More or less, yes. I previously referred to a utility talent idea that got buried (would reduce last hit gold received to 25% of gold normally received, rounded down, but would grant champion 75% value of gold for being nearby allied champion's last hit--allied champion gets normal gold for the last hit). This would increase overall gold income for the game, but only put it in the hands of someone who is spending time around others last hitting (would not work for a solo laner to take or a jungler to take at all, and the ADC would get more gold just farming on his own). The talent this way would only be attractive to a support (at least in the current meta), and would give supports a competitive gold supply without just handing them a ton of gold for 'standing there' (not that good supports just stand there, ever).

As for non-supports contributing to vision--I only see this as an issue late game. Non-supports should be buying wards to help out (mid 1-2 wards for their lane, top 1 ward for lane, ADC should be covered but can buy one here and there, and jungle should definitely focus on grabbing one now and again, although jungle would definitely grab more if gold supply was better).

To resolve the late-game six-item issue, why not offer more expensive wards that aren't item slot-reliant? In this sense, there is still value and strategy to keeping an item slot open for warding, but if one has excess gold and/or is in a bind with full slots, one can pay a premium for 'compact' wards that cost more due to miniaturized Zaun/Piltover technology. Whether or not we would want to do this for both standard wards and vision wards is another matter entirely.

Just my thoughts, and I'm sure there are disadvantages to them as well that haven't fully been explored (especially regarding the ward idea).

As a final note, huge swings in income for supports aren't necessary, but a significant gain in income is still fine by me. I am not of the opinion that supports should get equal farm to a solo laner/solo farmer of a lane, but "gold-starved" is inherently un-fun (regardless of strategic value overall).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

EnderForHegemon

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
Still reading through this. Between US and EU, this is a 200 page + thread.

Trends I am noticing:

* People feel the gold burden of supporting is too high
* People feel like others should participate in the vision game to some level
* People want items that better support playing in the vision game
* Some people are concerned about what happens to supports with a solid gold income
* Many support players feel they don't need a huge swing in incomes - just a reduction in non-permanent expenditures
Did you just read support gold posts for twenty hours?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

john

Senior Member

09-10-2013

i'd say another good idea would be to buff the utility mastery tree, particularly more gold gain in the lower half of the tree. what other role goes 21 utility besides support? this would buff the support ROLE without accidentally buffing support heroes directly and leading to stupid **** like AP soraka mid. it might indirectly buff a few mana-using mages, but they could use a buff with all the manaless ****** heroes running rampant in the metagame.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Azure Gamer

Junior Member

09-10-2013

Hey I'm going to piggy back off some ideas I've heard of before and say

Give boots a tier 3 upgrade that not only holds wards but makes them significantly cheaper

Supports get assist gold on champion kills, why not give a smaller amount of assist gold off of minion kills?