Damnit Morello is revealing all of my secrets again...

First Riot Post
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Anomander

Member

09-10-2013

I would like to see a new type of sight stone. Maybe called a "pulse stone". It would cost 225(three regular wards) it would contain two rechargeable "pulse wards".

Now what these pulse wards do is they are placed like normal wards. However they only give sight when activated (like Quinn's ability). When activated would give sight for 15 secs. And would have a 45 sec cool down. To activate a placed ward you can target your self with the item ,or maybe double clicking the ward or something like that.

This "pulse stone" would then build into a sight stone. So starting money and ward money can be used more efficiently without providing a over powering amount of sight. This would also make it more of a counter-play option when you over extend early.

Also for balance issue would probably need to make it so Lee Sin and people like him cannot jump to "pulse wards". I.E un-targetable by abilities(not auto attacks).


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BrightNooblar

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Senior Member

09-10-2013

I've always wanted to make vision/wards more denial based. Something where if I ward an area, you no longer have it warded. Or if I have an area warded well, and you ward it poorly, I can just go remove your ward.

Mechanically, my desire might be accomplished a couple ways. First i'd love to see green wards provide true sight (maybe true sight of wards only?) for maybe five seconds after placement. This creates slightly more interesting back and forths, where I know you're warding that bush, and I want to zone you out of it really fast so you can't kill my ward. It prevents you from plopping a pink down, and just coming back twenty seconds later to clear it, once i've backed off.

Or, instead (in addition to?) I'd love a way to reveal teemo sized area with true sight, for cheap. This would mean if I have wards down, and I see where you've warded, I can come over once you've left, reveal that spot (because I know where you warded) and remove your wards. This would then force you to properly clear my wards. It would also passively make ward placement a little more dynamic, as warding the 'obvious spot' would make a removal much easier.

Maybe this is the opposite direction you guys want (I could see it being very snowbally, vision wise), but to me it would add some depth and better denial/control to wards/vision. No longer would both teams have full ward coverage. Vision itself is more of a team objective, because gaining it yourself would inherently deny it for the enemy, which might elevate the supports perceived position.


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Where Smite is for Junglers, Clairvoyance should be for supports. Make Clairvoyance essentially replace warding. Whether you can use it multiple times or something, I don't know. It's just a thought.


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Hammizone

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rule 34 View Post
Focusing strictly on this. What happens if a jungler has to cover a lane? Say mid is roaming top for a gank against a heavy pusher, or top lane is getting shoved by his opponent + jungle, and he has to back because he's low on health from their gank?

Suddenly all that work you spent in farming those stacks is gone because you got 10 minions.
But he still gains gold either way. he would have to farm 10 creeps to lose 10 stacks, lets say he earns 200 gold from those creeps.


If he killed 12 jungler monsters ( wolves, wraiths, golems, and wolves again ) he would gain 12*(20*0.5) = 120 gold. it's win/win either way, except that it cant be abused by laners.


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Reizuc

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkArmedReaper View Post
Try making it so that they can get a super gp10 item, but they cant last hit minions.
this. This. THIS. THIS!!!!!

OMG this is UTTER BRILLIANCE!!!

However, in order for it not to be abused, it would have to have severe limitations.

Otherwise what's to stop a top or mid laner who gets shut down from buying it just to turtle till items then sell it once they make lotsa income.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

09-10-2013
2 of 15 Riot Posts

So to summarize:

  • You guys generally agree its unfair that supports both earn less and spend more
  • Think it might be fair if they earned equal amounts as laners but spent more on wards (relative to laners)
  • Are concerned that even if income was fixed, supports would still spend 100% of gold on wards
  • Feel that there's not enough interactions in the warding system right now
  • Believe we should look into ways to let non-supports get some vision in a way that doesn't restrict their item builds


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Blueleo

Member

09-10-2013

What do you think are the problems with support income?
-........What support income? LOL, but on a real note, the issue lies within how supports get income. We really only have gold per five items since we are deterred from farming and if our adc sucks, well, there goes any assist gold. There needs to be some interaction between supports and other champions or the map to where you can get gold. I like the whole idea of improving interaction of supports with "Pickpocket" from the mastery tree.

How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)
-Enough for their whole build! Usually at 50 minutes, supports don't have enough to buy anything. Supports keep buying wards so that their bank account goes on low most of the time. Heck, most times I don't even buy boots until 20-35 minutes.

If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
-I would like to see more gold for supports through interactive ways. Supports need to do something to get their gold rather than just buying an item. I feel like supports need to be rewarded when healing a champion, when damaging a champion, when shielding a champion, or when they do their job well, which is supporting. Based off of the mechanics in game, I would give them gold based off of coins that minions who died near them drop and they have to pick up(like Thresh). This would eliminate the boring sit in bush and just heal and occasional (rarely) poking the enemy team.

How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
-To be honest, I think you need to increase the price of wards. They are vital to the game. If you increase the price, other players will realize how vital it is since it is at a higher price. Thus, the responsibility shifts to others who has a well rounded income source (cough, adc, and mids who refuse to buy wards in solo que, cough). The price should not be so damatic to where supports can't buy them anymore though (but hey, if you increase the income they get, maybe it won't be that big of a problem).

Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
-I think wards are reasonable. It should be able to give you and your team vision. It increases awareness, team-work, and objective-based decisions. Although, I really hate pink wards, supports go through so much trouble to pink and green everything, and then the enemy team just pinks it and detroys all of our gold expenditures just like that.

Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
-No, why should they? Even though the lowest income character is probably deemed as a "support" champion, their "support" items should definitely not be so expensive nor should "support" champions have to rely on those items massively (there needs to be a wider variety of items that are tangible to supports). To be completely honest, it never feels good to buy an item directly out of Kage's or Philo if you don't reap the benefits after a long period of time. That should be addressed somehow.

Are the expectations on a support player too high?
-Yes. Every time something goes wrong, the support gets blamed most of the times for many reasons. Examples are:
"Why didn't you ward?", "Why didn't you ping?", "Why don't you have boots yet, wtf?", "WHY DIDN'T YOU PROTECT ME," "Why are you taking my minions!??!?!?"(when the adc or mid is still at base -_-), and more.
-Support players are expect to ward, to heal, to protect the adc at all costs, to make plays, to make engages sometimes, to buy pinks to make sure objectives are open, to not farm and be kept at a low income, to buy expensive items for the benefit of the team and not their own individual character [which makes them susceptible to a weak early, mid, and late game, but at least provides decent support to others (which I find ridicuouls because every champion should have reasonable power and tankyness despite any role)].

Those were my thoughts :]


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SUPERIOR SK1LL

Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
So to summarize:
  • You guys generally agree its unfair that supports both earn less and spend more
  • Think it might be fair if they earned equal amounts as laners but spent more on wards (relative to laners)
  • Are concerned that even if income was fixed, supports would still spend 100% of gold on wards
  • Feel that there's not enough interactions in the warding system right now
  • Believe we should look into ways to let non-supports get some vision in a way that doesn't restrict their item builds
Reworking the entire ward system would be a start. Its a relic from the DOTA age that needs a change.

Dawngate is being a hero and making them innate like you guys did with the blue pill.


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GhostStalker

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
So to summarize:
  • You guys generally agree its unfair that supports both earn less and spend more
  • Think it might be fair if they earned equal amounts as laners but spent more on wards (relative to laners)
  • Are concerned that even if income was fixed, supports would still spend 100% of gold on wards
  • Feel that there's not enough interactions in the warding system right now
  • Believe we should look into ways to let non-supports get some vision in a way that doesn't restrict their item builds
Sounds about right tbh. Imagine if supports earned equal amounts to laners though. Support Zyra would not be building support, she would be building full on mage dps, she's a ridiculous support already, just imagine all the damage she'd bring with AP-Mid items.


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IS13f9271d4729dc669a20a

Senior Member

09-10-2013

What do you think are the problems with support income?

Quite simply, gold generation is too low. GP5 as a state is not interesting, stats like attack speed or health are interesting due to being able to "see" the results, the only way to see the results of a GP5 is to stare at your gold and watch it increase slightly faster.

How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)


I can't answer this due to the fact that support itemisation will likely significantly change in Season 4. Obviously they should get as much as 48.5 minutes of gold generation + assists + GP5 + some cs or kills. Hard to give that a number without looking it up.

If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?

As I said earlier, GP5 is boring. Pickpocket was a decent attempt at giving supports more gold but I feel it ultimately is not very significant and heavily favors ranged despite the extra gold given to a melee. However giving similar masteries to the utility tree may make it too good to pass up on other roles. I an stumped for ways other than pickpocket, although the idea of getting gold when someone CS's near you was decent, though the issues with that have been discussed to death.

How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?

That's something I think players just have to learn for them self. Other than adding tips during the loading screen or possibly in Champion Spotlights, I don't see how you could teach them other than letting them see the difference by playing LoL.

Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?

Sight Wards are possibly too powerful but I don't think they are a huge issue. Pink wards are fine until supports get into a battle of Pink Wards that just ends up putting each other further behind than their teams in gold. If anything oracles is possibly too powerful (still).

Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?


I don't think so, but they are the lowest income characters because high income characters have that income because they scale very well with expensive items (ADC's). Of course an ADC should buy a few wards but they need most of their gold or they will be outscaled by the enemy ADC. Supports by design are not gold dependent because their kits are packed with CC that doesn't require any gold.

Are the expectations on a support player too high?

The ward expectation is probably too high but that is simply because their income can't handle it. Being able to get to late game item builds as a support is just a distant dream that very rarely happens due to a small income topped off with the majority going to consumables. However I don't think the player base expects too much from a support, though they could definitely help with the ward burden.