Damnit Morello is revealing all of my secrets again...

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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

09-10-2013
1 of 15 Riot Posts

*sharpens his claws a bit*

For those of you who missed it, I want to draw attention to this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Now, let's put this thread on a good note; let me tell you two must-haves for Season 4 to ship successfully in my mind;

We're going to significantly improve, and ultimately fix, jungle and support gold flow. I feel this is one of the most painful areas of League, and one that can be fixed. A lot of the satisfaction in League is growing in power over time, getting items, and transitioning from early to late game with items. It's definitely a problem that 2/5 of players don't get to do this.

Season 4 changes will address this problem, and very likely throw balance into a tailspin for preseason. Eggs, omelettes, etc. We'll work hard to get that fleshed out and tuned before S4 starts properly.

Wards and the map vision system need to be overhauled. This is part-and-parcel with the above as Support gold largely suffers due to ward gold burden, but there are a multitude of other problems like snowballing, few real interesting ward decision-making opportunities, and few people involved with the vision game. Details have to wait, but the new system will address these issues.
These two systems have been the major project that Xypherous and I have been working on for the last 3-4 months. This has been a huge effort, in terms of collecting data, experimenting and generally playing mad scientist while attempting to preserve the core of what makes Summoner's Rift fun.

There's four huge topics here:
  • Jungle gold income
  • Support gold income
  • Support expenditures on warding
  • The effects of using wards to gain vision

Trying to hit all 4 cohesively in one point is madness, however, they are all HIGHLY interconnected. So while this thread is about the overlap between all four, expect to see breakout threads from myself or other designers discussing each topic individually to gather focused feedback.

For this post, I want to talk about the relationship between support income, warding and the problems these two systems are causing with each other:

What are the issues?

Supports
  • Supports are expected to not last hit, thus gaining no income
  • Supports are expected to shoulder most of the gold burden for purchasing wards
  • Supports are expected to roam the map and ward
  • Supports are expected to buy expensive activated items
  • Supports are expected to be effective without gold revenue
  • Supports are often tied to the Marksman carry
  • Supports never get to achieve an endgame fantasy due to losing all of their income to vision expenditures

Vision
  • Wards are necessary to protect the sanctity of laneing from persistent Jungler aggression
  • Wards are necessary to observe important locations and objective
  • Wards cost gold, from the character least equipped to afford them
  • Wards are the only option for revealing a specific area to move forward safely
  • Wards used in the previously mentioned way linger for a long time (3 minutes!!)
  • Wards are so important, players feel entitled to having the map warded without contributing

Wow! This is a lot!!

No kidding. This is not a small set of problems. So to kick off this discussion, help me out:
  • What do you think are the problems with support income?
  • How much gold do you think supports need over the course of a 50 minute game (hint: I know the answer, but tell me what you think...)
  • If we were to give more gold to supports, in what kind of situations would you expect to be getting more gold?
  • How do we get other players to recognize the power of wards and the vision they provide?
  • Are all wards too powerful? Are just pink wards too powerful?
  • Should the lowest income character shoulder the highest consumable expenditures in the game?
  • Are the expectations on a support player too high?

X-Posted on EUW.


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Evilizedlol

Senior Member

09-10-2013

good morning


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DjWashcloth

Member

09-10-2013

Shen'd.

Edit: Supports shouldn't be forced to buy all the wards, that is more of a bronze problem from what I can tell. When I play mid/top and even adc, when I back I buy 2-3 wards usually if I have inventory space.


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Splendid Cake

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Support income sucks BECAUSE they spend the most on consumables, and as a result your personal power never really progresses. I suppose you realize this already, though.


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Arduno

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Xyn and Xel facing the madness/void goodluck my friends!!


Also what about the ward slots idea, any insight why this cannot be done?


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tempname129c

Member

09-10-2013

reserved for replying


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Paw

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Senior Recruiter

09-10-2013

All wards are overpowered.

They grant vision of an area that not only allows your team to see the enemy in that location, but also to see where they place their wards.

This allows your team to place pink wards (or buy oracles) that deny the enemy this precious vision.

Wards last for minutes at a time and can sometimes lead to standoffs at objectives.

Games at the highest level are often decided by vision and the denial of such to the enemy team.

For supports to have more gold available, something needs to be done about the necessity of purchasing wards.


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PowerbIade

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Throwing random suggestions here...

Just make warding less necessary and replace it with something else.

Maybe make Clairvoyance more viable, have wards grant less vision, last less, cost more, or introduce a new item. Something must be done.

How about making an item that reveals a specific area on the map for a few seconds? It has a little more range than a ward, and can be used from anywhere. Of course it will be somewhat expensive.

Or make the ADC items cost less while buffing other roles. Make the ADC role a role that supporting doesn't have to be tagged along to. I'd like for supporting to be similar to jungling: Sometimes going around the map and helping allies escape ganks/securing kills. Maybe increased movespeed in a way for supports as well as an item that slowly grants XP? This item wouldn't be cost-efficient on other roles.

Might be bad suggestions, but just throwing them out there. Might add more later. Also, thanks for realizing the problem!


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Nave222

Senior Member

09-10-2013

i want to reserve a spot too pardon my late response D:


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Im Magnificent

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Please don't ruin Supports. The main thing about the Support role is that NOT EVERY CHAMPION CAN DO IT, which gives you a small pool of champions that are actually effective. It's already frustrating enough when people pick Support Nidalee.

Warding is essential for this game, and supports buy the majority of the wards but not all. I don't see why people think that Supports are the only ones who buy wards.

To be a support champion, they have to be viable throughout the game whether it be through CC, peeling, or just assisted damage (For instance Zyra) and be able to do this on a low budget.

Wards allow the game to be played more aggressively in my honest opinion. Could you imagine competitive play with no wards? It would be the "let's freeze the lane and run away whenever I see them run closer to me." game for about 45 minutes.

My only problem with warding is that, only one person can do most of it. Early on in the game you'll see more warding from other lanes but that's simply for "Defensive Warding." and later on you'll see less warding, but when you do it's usually "Offensive Warding". Overall wards should cost less.

The main problems I have with warding are oracles and pink warding. You rarely see a pink ward outside of the dragon pit, or baron pit, or early game bot lane bushes. They need to be reduced in cost for more effectiveness. Also reverting Oracles back to the way it used to be would allow this change to be even better for pink wards.