Let's talk about Soraka

First Riot Post
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Mirage Night

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
One option for soraka could be:
  • Remove her basic heal
  • Replace it with: Fortitude - Grants the target 200 armor/mr for 3 sec. If the target is out of combat, increase their current health up to, but no higher than, 25% of their maximum health.

That would allow her to "save" champions under attack in combat and give her minor "you can do something extra before going back to base" style of sustain.

... but would Soraka players want something like that in exchange for say Starcall being stronger?
Too much disc priest, not enough holy priest.


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Elewd

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
One option for soraka could be:
  • Remove her basic heal
  • Replace it with: Fortitude - Grants the target 200 armor/mr for 3 sec. If the target is out of combat, increase their current health up to, but no higher than, 25% of their maximum health.

That would allow her to "save" champions under attack in combat and give her minor "you can do something extra before going back to base" style of sustain.

... but would Soraka players want something like that in exchange for say Starcall being stronger?
what about just combining her w and E and then giving her a new E that will disarm someone? shes supposed to be like a pacifist support, disarming people wouldnt be too far off the spectrum to her.


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
One option for soraka could be:
  • Remove her basic heal
  • Replace it with: Fortitude - Grants the target 200 armor/mr for 3 sec. If the target is out of combat, increase their current health up to, but no higher than, 25% of their maximum health.

That would allow her to "save" champions under attack in combat and give her minor "you can do something extra before going back to base" style of sustain.

... but would Soraka players want something like that in exchange for say Starcall being stronger?

I don't really know what soraka players want, but I do know that there are a million ways to implement healing, and surely one way is the right way for league of legends.

When it comes straight down to it, healing is fine if there is counterplay and opportunity to interact with it. That is what soraka needs.


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mertatron

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xelnath View Post
one option for soraka could be:
  • remove her basic heal, but keep wish
  • replace it with: Fortitude - grants the target 200 armor/mr for 3 sec. If the target is out of combat, increase their current health up to, but no higher than, 25% of their maximum health.

that would allow her to "save" champions under attack in combat and give her minor "you can do something extra before going back to base" style of sustain.

... But would soraka players want something like that in exchange for say starcall being stronger?
yes !!! she needs a real Q


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Khristophoros

The Council

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
One option for soraka could be:
  • Remove her basic heal
  • Replace it with: Fortitude - Grants the target 200 armor/mr for 3 sec. If the target is out of combat, increase their current health up to, but no higher than, 25% of their maximum health.

That would allow her to "save" champions under attack in combat and give her minor "you can do something extra before going back to base" style of sustain.

... but would Soraka players want something like that?
I think I'd enjoy that if it would be up to 50% HP.


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StationaryObject

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
One option for soraka could be:
  • Remove her basic heal
  • Replace it with: Fortitude - Grants the target 200 armor/mr for 3 sec. If the target is out of combat, increase their current health up to, but no higher than, 25% of their maximum health.

That would allow her to "save" champions under attack in combat and give her minor "you can do something extra before going back to base" style of sustain.

... but would Soraka players want something like that in exchange for say Starcall being stronger?
As a regular ability?
What kinda cost/cooldown we lookin at for this? A small/short or big/long?

I'm liking it though, would be a nice heal replacement. Would also help tank engagements.

Could have issues late game with armor pen/magic pen items. Might be easily shut down?

Edit:
I WOULD DO ANYTHING TO GIVE STARCALL MORE POWER.


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Mutagenaric

Recruiter

09-10-2013

Throwing out some ideas and stuff here. Obviously the numbers are basically placeholder, where they exist.

-Change her heal to add counterplay. Instead of an armor buff/heal, make it a short heal over time that ends if the player takes damage from a champion. This would let pokers have an option to deal with the heal, by poking the champ or going all-in once the heal goes off. It would also mean that if the ADC she healed wants to get the full effect, they may have to miss some last hits by hanging back, so as to avoid poke. This would not allow the clutch Soraka saves from ignites/DoTs, however. Thought: perhaps it could provide a temporary shield, value either the full heal or something else, that gets gradually turned into health over a short period of time (shield gets smaller, health pool gets bigger). The health does not come into effect if the shield takes damage, however, and the shield goes away after the heal's normal duration. This would give it more use in teamfights, and also make it harder to just all-in her in lane. Maybe it could give stats while the shield is active, too, I dunno - that'd potentially edge in on Janna, if it was flat AD, so maybe the armor portion could come in here.

-Possibly remove the global heal...? I know it's pretty iconic, but it's also kinda... meh. When it works, it's glorious, but... generally, you only need it for ONE person at a time in lane, and you use it to heal the whole team only when you're in a teamfight. Maybe it could be made to work something like this, instead: global range "heal nova" centered on an ally that bursts out and heals for a reasonable amount. Maybe it could have a delay of half a second or so, something to give people a chance to drop an ignite on the primary target during laning to negate it a bit, without killing its use as a teamwide heal during teamfights. It would also emphasize the clustered fights Soraka seems to like (due to her passive and Q) because the whole team would only get healed if fairly close to one another. It could also be useful for making a gank gone wrong or counter-gank turn into a bait, which could be cool.

-Her Q. I don't like it. Maybe some people do, but I surely do not. It feels like a wasted ability on a support - sustained damage on a support that shreds MRes. You can't poke with it, because it's short range and low damage and pushes the lane. The magic shred synergizes a little bit with some champs, maybe... Kog'maw, Varus, and Corki could get a tiny bit of use from it, or if your jungle is a Fiddlesticks at level 6... Anyway, it's not great.
+Possible change: make it apply stacks with each hit that eventually are consumed into a short stun, at five or some stacks. Maybe more. Makes the ability very strong, and makes Rylai's even better with it ('cos people can't run away from you so easily). Makes her more of a target to take out in teamfights. Does NOT allow her to reactively CC someone, or initiate, making other supports' CC ability still a lot better outside of a sustained teamfight. Would make potentially make her the queen of sustained teamfights, with a ramp-up time during the fight. Would make it hard to actually land CC during a lane, because any peel would see you out of range, but would also make it riskier to all-in a Soraka lane, because if you can't burst her and her ADC down, they gain a dangerous bit of CC. Note: for five stacks, with her current cooldown for her Q, it would take 12.5 seconds to drop a stun. Obviously, CDR would help this - 7.5 seconds, if my calculations are correct, to stun. Even so, that's a lot of time to react. Numbers can be tuned as necessary, of course.
+Turn her Q into a Karthus-style toggled ability that damages people around her, but make it cost increasingly large amounts of mana with each tick and do increasingly more damage and shred more resistances - maybe just Mres, maybe armor too, whatever. Again, gives her a ramp-up during fights, and gives her AP Midlane version greater potential to be dangerous - she has the potential to get an archangels and bluebuffs and the like, and thus can ramp up further during a fight.
+I dunno. Both of these seem like very strong abilities for a support to have. Then again, Thresh exists, so maybe that's okay. =P I prefer the first one, since no CC but a silence make Soraka feel mediocre and pointless when I'm playing her in a teamfight.

-Her E! I will admit, I'm not a huge fan of this. It's short range, of course, so using it to poke without retaliation is... not likely, despite the silence, and the damage is mediocre. As a mana-battery, it encourages the ADC to poke instead, which does more dmg and is often longer range. But! I feel like this basically lowers the gameplay for the Soraka while increasing what the ADC can/must do. As the ADC, I don't like being solely responsible for lane presence; as Soraka, I don't like sitting back and relying on my Varus/Corki/Caitlyn(/Lucian?)/whatever for poke while I twiddle my fingers and dodge Thresh hooks. It can enable some cool kill lane comps - Ciderhelm's Cass/Soraka lane comes to mind - but, again, a champion designed to be a blue buff for another champion kinda sucks. It's not fun, and it's not fun to play against. The cooldown-gated choice between a buff for an ally and an attack for an enemy should stay. That's cool. And having a targeted silence is nice for Soraka against assassins - it actually has let me peel occasionally. Giving back allies' mana is also nice, but kinda passive. How about this - restructure it as a spell-manipulator. You can cast it on an ally, and spells they cast during a set amount of time cost %less mana, and maybe their auto-attacks give them a burst of extra mana regen, maybe based on %missing mana so that it's less effective to just keep your mana bar topped off and encourages operating at mid-level mana for efficiency. (Possibly let this be like Nunu's blood boil - allow her to self-cast it, and reap the same effects as when she ally-casts it? Might be too strong) On enemy cast, silences them and does some damage, like it currently does, but debuffs them so that auto-attacks against them return some flat mana back to the attacker - more than casting it on the ally directly in most situations. Could avoid abuse by having it be stronger on champs than on minions (or only work on champs) so Soraka doesn't just cast it on a cannon minion and have her ADC farm up (also would lose effectiveness as ADC autos kill the debuffed target faster, so this should not be encouraged).

-Passive is boring. Maybe make it increase with strength up to a cap per each spellcast she performs? Again, gives her ramp-up and makes her better at sustained fights. Might want to make her Q castable without nearby enemies. This would remove her ability to detect bush champs and stuff without spamming it, but I could live with that.

Them's my thoughts.


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mertatron

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldmanj View Post
sorakas heals do define her, but you forget she has 2 substantial heals. w and her ult. make her memorable for her ult, not her w.

Astral blessing should be a more sustain by small heals kind of spell, a little like sona but i would put the cooldown somewhere between nidalees heal and sonas.

also to be completely honest when I see someone pick soraka for my support when I am the Marksman I think more of having mana infused to me rather than her Heal. Soraka is the only one who can infuse you mana, not the only one who can heal. perhaps at the beginning of the game thats what people identified with when playing soraka but now Im not so sure.

I admit that sorakas heals are a large part of her identity and should remain. her single target heal should not be what ppl identify with though... Even if you have to force it, her ult is what ppl need to identify with
totally right, u think more of mana sustain when playing with a soraka more than health sustain.
and if her only heal is wish ... then it could also be better and her it could be better too


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

09-10-2013
15 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by StationaryObject View Post
As a regular ability?
What kinda cost/cooldown we lookin at for this? A small/short or big/long?

I'm liking it though, would be a nice heal replacement. Would also help tank engagements.

Could have issues late game with armor pen/magic pen items. Might be easily shut down?

Edit:
I WOULD DO ANYTHING TO GIVE STARCALL MORE POWER.
I am imagining that as a rank 5 version of her current heal at its current tuning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirage Night View Post
Too much disc priest, not enough holy priest.
Morello spent an entire thread talking about why MMO style healing is disastrous for this game... and very likely it is at the root of a lot of MMO action failures too.

BTW, I played a Disc/Holy priest during the last half of Burning Crusade. The value I brought, relative to the skill I had in being a healer, was ridiculous. I think thats why a lot of people fall into the healer fantasy: most of them are ridiculously OP.


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Super Explosion

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by emTmyclipin2u View Post
to heal her carries
So as a point, a support shouldn't be shoehorned into laning with hyper-DPS (not that you may have strictly meant this, though)--

Support should make a giant impact in any lane of the game, and thus be able to enable different strategies.

Right now, they're just not powerful enough to do that. They're 'strong' because they may fill the role of 'sucking the least when they give all their gold to the DPS'.

But obviously that may be unsatisfying for many players.

Because the ranged carries are so strong, support has been handed to them, and they've perhaps thusly been kept weak as an indirect nerf to ranged carries.

Support, for it to be satisfying however, can't exist as a pure sidekick-- they need to enable aggression through highly visible displays of power.

So for support to be actually enjoyable, a single-carry metagame needs to be disjointed, and supports need to be able to use gold to amplify the team.