Let's talk about Soraka

First Riot Post
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Tolinar

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because it basically violates the entire combat paradigm and invalidates any numerics put in place to pace the game. It artificially inflates DPS formulas (if you have to account for DPS with a dedicated healer, then it's nigh-impossible to balance both with it and without it) and sacrifices decision density in-game (harass-style decisions become invalid).

This all comes with one benefit; you get to put a healer in the game. Now, I think that benefit has a big gain on a creative sense - fantasy fulfullment is high, familiarity exists and people who like healers or tons of option breadth favor it. However, mechanically, it's all costs and no gain.

In League, it's important that good decision density and counter-play exist. A dedicate healer that would feel like the healer people want cannot live in that space.
Morello, you can't destroy harass-oriented options, or my constant use of clarity as a summoner spell will get invalidated!


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Sigilyph

Junior Member

09-10-2013

All I hope is that Soraka isn't "reworked" like Karma was.


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StationaryObject

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PodunkTheMighty View Post
My main exception is with the last paragraph though. Flash is 'too powerful' an ability to be on a low cooldown and yet we have Ezreal and Kassadin successfully balanced around it.
I'm sure a majority of GD would fight you on that point.

In the end, this is my opinion. I personally do not believe Soraka needs more 'fix it' abilities.
She needs something to make her more aggressive in lane and not just a heal/cleanse bot.
People [a majority anyway] do not enjoy playing supports that just sit there and do nothing. They like to feel engaged in the game and like to DO things. Sitting in a bush and healing/cleansing people is not DOING things IMHO.

Soraka needs something to do other than AA. She needs something that does damage or does something to instigate trades.

THIS IS MY OPINION.

I would not be able to stand playing Soraka if all she does is heal and heal and cleanse and infuse and heal.


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StationaryObject

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeDave View Post
What about having the cleanse (or the 'Santuary' idea I proposed earlier) could be an alternate effect to a spell in a similar faction to her 'E' ability. You hit her alt and you can click on herself for the normal Wish, or you can click on her ally for the Alternate effect (in this case cleanse).
That's perfectly fine IMHO.
A Ult Cleanse could add some dimension to her character.
I only feel that a low-cooldown cleanse would not benefit Soraka in the slightest.


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mertatron

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
So in this example, you'd focus on her poke and make her healing a secondary benefit? That could work, though the heal would have to get hammered.
I think soraka needs her heal to be less good to make her better

it's her heal that shuts her down ... that's her heal that makes her "weak" and feeling less usefull than most other supports

she still needs to be some kind of niche defensive support ... but with more utility .. a support that feels good other than .. "oh I filled your HP bar .. now I'm just gonna hide for 20 sec" ...


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PodunkTheMighty

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Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by StationaryObject View Post
I'm sure a majority of GD would fight you on that point.

In the end, this is my opinion. I personally do not believe Soraka needs more 'fix it' abilities.
She needs something to make her more aggressive in lane and not just a heal/cleanse bot.
People [a majority anyway] do not enjoy playing supports that just sit there and do nothing. They like to feel engaged in the game and like to DO things. Sitting in a bush and healing/cleansing people is not DOING things IMHO.

Soraka needs something to do other than AA. She needs something that does damage or does something to instigate trades.

THIS IS MY OPINION.

I would not be able to stand playing Soraka if all she does is heal and heal and cleanse and infuse and heal.
The majority of GD would fight you on any point, so that's not too disconcerning. I agree about Soraka though. My initial thought was that a clean ability would be cool on a new, different support.


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Tolinar

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by StationaryObject View Post
I'm sure a majority of GD would fight you on that point.

In the end, this is my opinion. I personally do not believe Soraka needs more 'fix it' abilities.
She needs something to make her more aggressive in lane and not just a heal/cleanse bot.
People [a majority anyway] do not enjoy playing supports that just sit there and do nothing. They like to feel engaged in the game and like to DO things. Sitting in a bush and healing/cleansing people is not DOING things IMHO.

Soraka needs something to do other than AA. She needs something that does damage or does something to instigate trades.

THIS IS MY OPINION.

I would not be able to stand playing Soraka if all she does is heal and heal and cleanse and infuse and heal.

OK, so let me ask YOU.

- Right now, Soraka has no SKILL SHOTS. Her gameplay revolves around range, and distance to opponent, and using LACK of skill shots to be able to maneuver freely and frustrate the enemy's skill shots.
- Right now, Infuse has no mana cost. This encourages Soraka to do more than sit back and spam heal every 20 seconds.
- Right now, Soraka's not tough or damaging enough to frontline. This forces the Soraka player to be cautious about her position.

How do we change this "sit back and heal" identity?


Do we keep Soraka with NO skill shots? All targeted abilities?
Is her position going to continue to be a major focus?


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Morello

Lead Designer

09-10-2013
12 of 18 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
But is a synergistic healer really incompatible with League?

Your goal here is not to make a champion which stares at health bars and pushes buttons in response-- it's to have abilities which, while they may heal, do so with an awareness of the enemy.

So here's an ability-- 'adds temporary health which is converted into real health as the ally deals damage'.

Reasonable interplay there, perhaps.

So basically: Why is it not possible to make a character who heals and buffs (with huge visibility) to defeat enemies?
There's a few ways, I think the balancing you have to do and the downsides end up making something unsatisfying.

Let's say there's a dedicated healer, and it has a healthy heal pattern. This means it would have:

1) A 30s+ long cooldown to make the opportunity cost quite meaningful.

2) Be Sona's heal.

3) Require some gameplay pattern (like hit a guy in melee and then bring the HP back to your friend in melee) that removes the character from "healer" identity.

1 and 2 simply don't give someone enough to do if that's their prime focus. So, abilities like this are included on non-healer characters to give them decision density, and a fall-back or save pattern of healing.


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namielise

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Because it basically violates the entire combat paradigm and invalidates any numerics put in place to pace the game. It artificially inflates DPS formulas (if you have to account for DPS with a dedicated healer, then it's nigh-impossible to balance both with it and without it) and sacrifices decision density in-game (harass-style decisions become invalid).

This all comes with one benefit; you get to put a healer in the game. Now, I think that benefit has a big gain on a creative sense - fantasy fulfullment is high, familiarity exists and people who like healers or tons of option breadth favor it. However, mechanically, it's all costs and no gain.

In League, it's important that good decision density and counter-play exist. A dedicate healer that would feel like the healer people want cannot live in that space.
then let's get the healer that can live in that space!


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Critkeeper

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Honestly there are plenty of ways to make soraka feel better as a dedicated healer, while introducing counterplay and without inflating DPS or causing other issues.

There really are. You aren't looking at this optimistically enough. You just look and assume, based on its effect in other games, that it always leads down a bad path.

It doesn't have to, but you really have to try. Thats what it comes down to. You can't build soraka around the idea that she's a dedicated healer.

You have to design soraka around the idea that she gives her opponents ways to counteract / deny / compete with her dedicated healing.



Like she could put down a healing zone over the corpse of an allied unit that you have to stand in, and enemies can nullify the zone by profaning (standing) inside of it with you. Its rather small, so you are going to be vulnerable to crowd control and skillshots while inside of it, and once you leave it then it is gone-- it doesn't come back until you recast it.



Thats just one way. Read people's suggestions (assuming you haven't). There are plenty of ways to keep soraka feeling like soraka while making her good for the game from a balance point of view.