Explanation behind IP removal on custom game please

First Riot Post
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Quepha

Senior Member

09-09-2013

good to hear from a red on this change. i didn't think about the RAF exploit, i hope you find a way to return IP to solo games


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LucidFlux

Senior Member

09-09-2013

Why not just take away the XP reward from custom games? This would make it so they couldn't reach level 5 on the referred account by playing custom games therefore there would be no reason to play customs.

I have a problem with this because I have a lot of people that I have referred that I have to teach the game. I don't feel comfortable spamming the chat with instructions in regular Co-op games with 3 other people. Also I like to play 1v1 with my friends on the ARAM map now there is no way to play 1v1 and gain any IP. I do understand a dueling map will come out someday but it does suck that I can never play 1v1 games and gain IP ever again.


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Sabert00thed

Junior Member

09-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
Hey All,
I wanted to provide a bit of context for these changes. Before I begin though, let me reiterate the current restriction:
Thank you very much for addressing the issue. It renews our trust in Riot as an organization who listens to players.

Quote:
The reason we did this was, as some of you had suspected, a reaction to players using bots to farm games for IP/XP. While in an ideal world we'd just ban the accounts and move on, the problem wasn't that people were using these bots on their main accounts to accrue ip/xp. Instead they were exploiting the refer a friend program by creating new bot accounts, leveling them up as referrals, and then giving another account the IP/RP rewards (which in turn they'd launder via other means). This made targeted bans not an effective solution, so instead we had to tackle the problem at its source. This wasn't a limited issue either; check out this report showing the distribution of game end times in NA for the month of July: http://imgur.com/wLFwRBq
Well, if that is the case perhaps a viable solution would be setting full XP and partial IP restrictions for players from levels 1-10. You could also gradually unlock rewards based on the number of players, their levels and game length, until everybody gets the normal, previous amount of XP/IP. In many cases the minimum number of human players could be two, since a lot of custom game players apparently play in couples (father/son, boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife, teacher/student, and so on). But there seem to be also an at least equal number of people who play customs alone, and they should be considered too.
As a side note, it seems likely that most custom game players favor Summoners' Rift, which ironically was the map hit the hardest by the patch. Maybe you could take that into account as well.

Quote:
This thread and others have brought some light to a legitimate play pattern that we didn't anticipate would be a main form of engagement, and that'll cause some conversations on our end about what the next step forward here should be. It was our intention to evaluate the success of the changes later this week anyway, so once we have that data we'll be able to make an informed decision on if we can be more lax on the restriction.
We appreciate your honesty. I have gradually become a Riot and LOL fan and supporter, along with my wife. We were rather saddened by the change, and were considering leaving the game, as many others have as well. We feel, however, that people at Riot are really working hard to keep the original spirit of League of Legends alive. The reason why we love the game is because it is obvious that its creators love it as well, and therefore understand the needs of gamers. Keep it that way!

Hakuna Matata


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Arechon Gend

Senior Member

09-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
Hey All,

I wanted to provide a bit of context for these changes. Before I begin though, let me reiterate the current restriction:
  • IP/XP for Custom Games are no longer rewarded unless there are half as many human players as the map was designed for (5 for SR, CS, and HA; 3 for TT)
  • It's still possible to play custom games any number of players (as long as it's not been restricted for load reasons)
The reason we did this was, as some of you had suspected, a reaction to players using bots to farm games for IP/XP. While in an ideal world we'd just ban the accounts and move on, the problem wasn't that people were using these bots on their main accounts to accrue ip/xp. Instead they were exploiting the refer a friend program by creating new bot accounts, leveling them up as referrals, and then giving another account the IP/RP rewards (which in turn they'd launder via other means). This made targeted bans not an effective solution, so instead we had to tackle the problem at its source. This wasn't a limited issue either; check out this report showing the distribution of game end times in NA for the month of July: http://imgur.com/wLFwRBq

Note that we were seeing over 40% of our games end at 6 minutes, and those games were almost completely one player bot games. Those bot accounts would immediately queue up after completing a game and repeat the cycle, which in addition to the rewards issues was also putting a good bit of load on our system.

It's unfortunate that this change ended up hitting players who were playing legitimate games, but our hope was that the affected player size would be very small and primarily only impact people doing things like testing out new champions. This thread and others have brought some light to a legitimate play pattern that we didn't anticipate would be a main form of engagement, and that'll cause some conversations on our end about what the next step forward here should be. It was our intention to evaluate the success of the changes later this week anyway, so once we have that data we'll be able to make an informed decision on if we can be more lax on the restriction.
Fix the RAF system then, or just remove it for all I care, your punishing innocent players with this measure, and I will bump this thread over and over and over until this measure is reversed.


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Arechon Gend

Senior Member

09-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arechon Gend View Post
Fix the RAF system then, or just remove it for all I care, your punishing innocent players with this measure, and I will bump this thread over and over and over until this measure is reversed.

I know that came off sounding a little harsh, but it always seems to me that Riot ignores the more casual types of players who are less interested in the competitive aspects of this game. I'm just very frustrated with so many games, not just LoL that tend to listen to what their more hard core players want. Its the type of issue that a lot of Fighting games have. RTSs have it a lot too. I'm just sick of casual players being the ones who get screwed over. I understand that this isn't a case of Riot changing things because high ranking players asked for it, and more of them trying to fix a very real problem, I get that, but it is at the cost of yet again screwing over a form of casual play. That is where my frustration comes from, and why my earlier post sounded so harsh.


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Brackhar

Features Designer

09-10-2013
4 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by R3DSKULL View Post
So then the problem is quite simply no xp/ip rewards till after 20minutes. Problem solved. Even if every 20mins they play and lose thats an hr every 3 games. Make beginner have less ip/xp, then have an intermediate mode with more rewards at 20minutes but the A.i. is much nastier. actually let me just link to my older post on this.
Unfortunately that would affect drastically more players than the change we did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glutorals View Post
There's a cap on how much IP you can earn through customs, and you earn more IP losing a normal game than winning a custom game.

I suspect the number of people using bots to play was not enough to cause a huge problem.

So pretty much the real reason is the most obvious reason: Riot wants less IP so people will consider spending more in RP.
The cap you're referring to doesn't show up until level 15, and we didn't want to impose that limitation on level 1 accounts. Also, if you check the graph I linked you'll notice it was a sizeable problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beldori View Post
If folks are using bots to farm like this then whats to stop them from running 5 accounts at once to do the same thing regardless(or 3 for TT)? When it comes down to it the refer a friend is too easy to exploit since accounts are free
Unfortunately nothing prevents this. As I said, RAF probably needs a rework to fundamentally solve the issue, but this change will at least make it much harder for botters to farm successfully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LucidFlux View Post
Why not just take away the XP reward from custom games? This would make it so they couldn't reach level 5 on the referred account by playing custom games therefore there would be no reason to play customs.
That's currently the line of thought I'm following based on the feedback from this thread, but I'll need to discuss it with the team.


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Loc J Leno

Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
That's currently the line of thought I'm following based on the feedback from this thread, but I'll need to discuss it with the team.
You should just raise the level cap for rewards to level 10 or 15 or something.

I know many people who spammed TT games just to get to level 30 fast and effectively without stomping on noobies.


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CameronWoof

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Basically, I play bot matches often because normals are too high-pressure for me to play and actually enjoy. (Also, in bot matches you ALWAYS get to play blue. It just "feels" more natural starting in the bottom left than the upper right. Progress from left-to-right just feels better than going down and to the left.)

I don't care about experience. The metagame (runes, masteries) doesn't attract me in the least. All I really want to do is earn new champions so I can see how they play/if I like them. By removing IP gains from bot matches, you've basically made it so that I can only earn new champions by giving Riot money or by doing something I enjoy less as a means to playing a champion in a way I enjoy more.


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djcrouton

Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
Unfortunately that would affect drastically more players than the change we did.
I'm a bit surprised that it would impact more people than completely removing IP from any game with less than 5 players. If 20 minutes is too long, maybe make it 15 if it will impact fewer players, that's just a pretty arbitrary number. But I think you've missed the point of the suggestion. It doesn't need to be taken literally as a take it or leave is option. If the issue is really short games with few players, you can bump up the minimum time requirements to 20 minutes (or 18, or 16, or 25, or whatever makes sense based on analysis of game stats) and only have that limitation if there are below a threshold number of human players. Keep it at 5 if you want, that's fine. Basically any solution that allows some sort of IP for custom games of less than 5 human players will impact far fewer players than the change that was made.


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Katyperri

Senior Member

09-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brackhar View Post
Hey All,

I wanted to provide a bit of context for these changes. Before I begin though, let me reiterate the current restriction:
  • IP/XP for Custom Games are no longer rewarded unless there are half as many human players as the map was designed for (5 for SR, CS, and HA; 3 for TT)
  • It's still possible to play custom games any number of players (as long as it's not been restricted for load reasons)
The reason we did this was, as some of you had suspected, a reaction to players using bots to farm games for IP/XP. While in an ideal world we'd just ban the accounts and move on, the problem wasn't that people were using these bots on their main accounts to accrue ip/xp. Instead they were exploiting the refer a friend program by creating new bot accounts, leveling them up as referrals, and then giving another account the IP/RP rewards (which in turn they'd launder via other means). This made targeted bans not an effective solution, so instead we had to tackle the problem at its source. This wasn't a limited issue either; check out this report showing the distribution of game end times in NA for the month of July: http://imgur.com/wLFwRBq

Note that we were seeing over 40% of our games end at 6 minutes, and those games were almost completely one player bot games. Those bot accounts would immediately queue up after completing a game and repeat the cycle, which in addition to the rewards issues was also putting a good bit of load on our system.

It's unfortunate that this change ended up hitting players who were playing legitimate games, but our hope was that the affected player size would be very small and primarily only impact people doing things like testing out new champions. This thread and others have brought some light to a legitimate play pattern that we didn't anticipate would be a main form of engagement, and that'll cause some conversations on our end about what the next step forward here should be. It was our intention to evaluate the success of the changes later this week anyway, so once we have that data we'll be able to make an informed decision on if we can be more lax on the restriction.
I like to practice different jungle builds to improve speed and check survivability. They generally last no longer than 4-6 minutes and I re-que after a few tweaks almost immediately. I know I'm not the only person.

That being said, I could really care less if I get exp/ip in customs as I use customs to try to champs out or to fool around if I don't have time for a real game.