Diamond 1 Garen @ Riot/Balance Team - Why NERF Garen?!?

First Riot Post
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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

09-07-2013
2 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merina View Post
I noticed you didn't mention anything about why Judgement can't be canceled anymore. What's your reasoning for changing that? As it's already been explained there's nothing good that change brings to Garen.
I don't want to dwell on specifics because, again, these are first draft changes that have not even been playtested once outside of the lane. The reasoning for the change though was to make casting E a major commitment. Again, not every change will make Garen stronger. Every change should open space for us to make Garen stronger in the right hands.


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Shadow Merchant

Recruiter

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Hi MarineRevenge,
Thanks for your comments. Your thoughts on where crit should be on the kit are especially interesting. I’ll keep them in mind going forward.
Three general points:
First, these changes to Garen are very nascent. To be honest, they went to the PBE because I accidentally placed them in the wrong folder. They are currently closer to the “Stuff a designer prototypes on his machine” level of completion than “Stuff we ship to Live.” Feedback is always welcome, but hyperbolic statements like “they’re ruining him” are not necessary and needlessly breed panic over changes that, when the dust settles, are almost certain to leave him stronger overall.
Second, since this was an accidental promotion, it also did not include all of the changes to Garen – in the version we are about to begin playtesting, his passive is dramatically improved during the later phases of the game (healing values up/cooldown down) and his base stats and stats per level are slightly different.
Third, you have misapprehended the direct effect of some of these changes. For example, Garen’s Judgment (Spin to Win) is not on a longer cooldown. Rather, the cooldown begins when you press the button rather than when you end your spin. This means that Garen scales better with cooldown reduction. For example, at 34% CDR (say, Black Cleaver + Spirit Visage + masteries) Garen would have 25% less downtime on Judgment compared to Live. At 0% CDR, the spell is unchanged from Live in max uptme.

What are these changes really about? Let’s consider the Garen on Live: As you’ve identified, he’s a lane bully who lacks a purpose in the lategame. You seem to believe this is all Garen can ever be. I disagree. Every champion should have a purpose, a clear and potent contribution they can offer their team, in the late game when the game’s focus is on team fights and objectives. The goal of these changes is to trade a small amount of lane strength for a fundamental re-think of Garen’s late game.
My vision for Garen is that he is a relatively low mobility fighter (unchanged) with low combat ranges (unchanged) who a) is more or less immune to poke damage, b) inflicts immense damage to anyone within his reach, and c) if forced out of a fight but not killed, will rapidly regenerate health to return to the fray for cleanup duty. Think of him as an inverted Mundo/Singed – lower in-combat sustain but dramatically higher out of combat sustain. Pre-fight, Garen should walk in front of Nidalee spears and /laugh. Within fights, Garen should cleave a path through the mid-line, force the enemy ADC so far out of the fight that they cannot participate, turn and shut down the enemy mage or tank, execute the other while at 5% life himself, then solo dragon while his team takes an inhibitor.
As a final note, this isn’t just about Garen. We’re looking closely at our fighters as a class for season 4, individually and as a class with the goal of making the top lane experience more enjoyable – (while being in it and after emerging from it).
Thanks for taking the time to type that up. I have a question: What are you doing to Fighters as class in season 4? =]


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MadnessJoker777

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Serveral things that I would like to clarify.
Riot is not an idiot, they mean to buff Garen and the changes buff his damage and scaling if you do the calculation correctly.

The cooldown of his spin will be lowered rather because if you could see in your video, it started to count down once you activated your ability. You said Garen is one of your favourite champion, you should know the current Garen needs to finish his spin before the countdown starts.
Currently, with 40% CDR, Garen can spin every 8.4 second. After the change, Garen will be able to spin every 6.6 second. This is a huge buff to Garen.

Well, you cannot deactivate your spin could be one drawback, but in general Garen is a lot stronger both in laning phase and late game. You should be happy about the huge buff to your favourite champion.


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BeefyLoveLord

Senior Member

09-07-2013

I for one look forward to seeing Garens early game gutted further for the incredibly minor late game buffs we will see.

I do hope they buff tankiness again and nerf his damage/survival on Damage builds so he can continue to offer very little late game.

That worked out great last time.

The approach to this cycle of change to Garen bears no relation to the last, so I wouldn't expect similar results -- CertainlyT.

You'll forgive me if seeing is believing. So far what changes have leaked into test client do not inspire confidence.

Garens last rework was a failure which did nothing to address his issues and in fact took him out of his niche pick role entirely except for die hards who play the champ out of love.


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InubashiriMomiji

Senior Member

09-07-2013

One of the hopes that I have is for bruisers like Garen to not be as balanced around 1v1s as they have been during S3 and, to some extent, in S2. For example, Garen was annoying to face in 1v1s on top lane, but he is negligible when up against ranged champions or against 2 champions in lane.

I really feel like it's time for Riot to expect players to innovate strategies around their lane opponents instead of balancing them for when the player base intentionally plays poorly against them. This in turn allows for champion designs that excel more in certain situations while being worse in others like Garen should be instead of a champion that is decent in 1v1s but horrible at every other stage of the game.

I do feel that creating a game that requires teamwork and then balancing around minimizing teamwork in the regular or most commonly played version of the game seems contradictory and champion balance suffers due to it, like Garen and Darius.


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Minjo Master

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Senior Member

09-07-2013

I'm happy to hear Garen's getting looked at again. I remember playing him for a while back before he got nerfed and finding him really strong, and honestly not being surprised at the nerfs. But I definitely like that you guys are moving stuff around on him to make him more interesting.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

09-07-2013
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Merchant View Post
Thanks for taking the time to type that up. I have a question: What are you doing to Fighters as class in season 4? =]
We'll hopefully start talking publicly about that in 2-6 weeks! Then the plan is to iterate on thoughtful feedback/playtesting from the community and have a more enjoyable fighter class, and top lane/jungle experience (the three are inextriacbly linked) ready for season 4.


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Fergalish Fanci

Senior Member

09-07-2013

will his ult do true damage?

--No, but it will be re-named to "The Sword" -- CertainlyT.


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Shadow Merchant

Recruiter

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
We'll hopefully start talking publicly about that in 2-6 weeks! Then the plan is to iterate on thoughtful feedback/playtesting from the community and have a more enjoyable fighter class, and top lane/jungle experience (the three are inextriacbly linked) ready for season 4.
I can't wait! =D!


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Limiting Reagent

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
I don't want to dwell on specifics because, again, these are first draft changes that have not even been playtested once outside of the lane. The reasoning for the change though was to make casting E a major commitment. Again, not every change will make Garen stronger. Every change should open space for us to make Garen stronger in the right hands.
Please consider reverting this change. Not being able to deactivate the spin will make him much more difficult to use in lane.

Currently if an enemy disengages after Garen starts spinning (which they often do), we can instantly deactivate the ability as not to push the lane further and put the creep wave in the opponents favor.

If I have a wave of caster minions at full health, I will often times use [E] for just one tick of damage so that I can kill the casters with an auto after the tower hits them.

Removing this function is unnecessarily removing a layer of complexity to Garen.

--Not to be argumentative, but being a little more "difficult to use in lane" might be exactly what Judgment needs! We'll see through playtesting, and I am cognizant of the point you are raising about minion control -- CertainlyT.