90 caliber net: why is this skill so broken?

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Risemix

Senior Member

08-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The rules for dash interruption are consistent throughout the game, even if they are a little unclear. Let me explain:

90 Caliber Net's dash/jump (the two are mechanically identical) will not be stopped if you are stunned or rooted mid-flight but will be stopped if you are stunned or rooted during the spell's cast time. This is consistent with at least the vast majority of our non-ultimate dash/jumps with cast times (I suppose there could be an odd exception somewhere, though I can't think of one now).

The Blitzcrank interaction is how all dash/jumps work -- his movement ability always "wins" because either you are casting when it hits you (in which case, you are stunned when the cast completes) or are in flight (in which case his takes priority since the most recently applied movement effect always takes priority over earlier movement effects. Teleports with cast times will teleport the player even if they have been hooked provided the cast has already begun.

Why these rules exist is quite frankly beyond me, but they are certainly consistent.
I noticed you said dashes/jumps with cast times; what about Gragas? Hs dash does not have a cast time, and can be stopped mid-dash by almost anything, which is actually a little frustrating at times. My guess is that this is intentional, is that because he doesn't have a cast time?


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

08-30-2013
2 of 4 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risemix View Post
I noticed you said dashes/jumps with cast times; what about Gragas? Hs dash does not have a cast time, and can be stopped mid-dash by almost anything, which is actually a little frustrating at times. My guess is that this is intentional, is that because he doesn't have a cast time?
Again, this is factually inaccurate: Gragas' Body Slam is not interrupted by stuns or roots, just by other movement effects (for example, knockups) or by him colliding with a non-allied unit.


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guiotine

Senior Member

08-30-2013

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The Blitzcrank interaction is how all dash/jumps work -- his movement ability always "wins" because either you are casting when it hits you (in which case, you are stunned when the cast completes) or are in flight (in which case his takes priority since the most recently applied movement effect always takes priority over earlier movement effects.
Is Nautilus's hook different? The other day I escaped a blitz hook by leaping to a wall, and Nautilus's anchor attached after Blitz started pulling me.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

08-30-2013
3 of 4 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by guiotine View Post
Is Nautilus's hook different? The other day I escaped a blitz hook by leaping to a wall, and Nautilus's anchor attached after Blitz started pulling me.
Yes, it is an exception! The same goes for Bandage Toss, Dragon Strike + Demacian Standard, etc. Spells that move you not when the cast itself completes but on the completion of some additional event will generally function even while rooted/stunned.


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Risemix

Senior Member

08-30-2013

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Again, this is factually inaccurate: Gragas' Body Slam is not interrupted by stuns or roots, just by other movement effects (for example, knockups) or by him colliding with a non-allied unit.
Ahh, please forgive me. I realize now that many of the times I have been frustrated, it is due to being knocked up, rather than snared or stuns. Sometimes I forget that they are mechanically different.

Jarvan and Zac are awfully common these days, heh.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

08-30-2013

I don't suppose there's a plan to re-consider these rules much like brush vision ones, is there? They are consistent but awfully arbitrary.


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PenguinPaladin

Senior Member

08-30-2013

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Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
I don't suppose there's a plan to re-consider these rules much like brush vision ones, is there? They are consistent but awfully arbitrary.
Agreed. It's cool that jumps and teleports and self-pulls are all consistent within their own category, but I feel like movement abilities should be consistent as a category rather than having sub-rules for each type.


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4Touchdowns1Game

Senior Member

08-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
The rules for dash interruption are consistent throughout the game, even if they are a little unclear. Let me explain:

90 Caliber Net's dash/jump (the two are mechanically identical) will not be stopped if you are stunned or rooted mid-flight but will be stopped if you are stunned or rooted during the spell's cast time. This is consistent with at least the vast majority of our non-ultimate dash/jumps with cast times (I suppose there could be an odd exception somewhere, though I can't think of one now).

The Blitzcrank interaction is how all dash/jumps work -- his movement ability always "wins" because either you are casting when it hits you (in which case, you are stunned when the cast completes) or are in flight (in which case his takes priority since the most recently applied movement effect always takes priority over earlier movement effects. On the other hand, teleports with cast times will teleport the player even if they have been hooked provided the cast has already begun.

Why these rules exist is quite frankly beyond me, but they are certainly consistent.
So why is Tristana's Rocket Jump different? If she get's slowed while jumping she will drop straight down (happened to me when I got hit by Gankplank Q in mid air, and likewise with ranged auto attacks with a red buff, and also happens when you jump over a teemo shroom or caitlyn trap).
Also, one time I was grabbed by Blitz while casting Rocket Jump, and after the grab finished and brought me to him I jumped straight away, not even giving him time to knock me up.


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CertainlyT

Champion Designer

08-30-2013
4 of 4 Riot Posts

I agree that greater consistency is desirable as a principle, but I wonder how general we need to be. For example, non-movement spells with cast times all complete even if the caster is stunned during the middle of the spell (as anyone who has stunned Ezreal as he casts Arcane Barrage is sure to have noticed). One could argue that movement spells should obey the overall rule for spell casts and move the caster. However, I think it would be odd for Tristana to leap into the air 0.24 seconds after she was hit by Dazzle.

In this case, there are good motivations behind the distinctions we make -- in this case, we have structured the system to minimize the number of situations in which spell casts are wasted entirely but still put on cooldown. Caitlyn cannot begin casting 90 Caliber Net while rooted, so she is only able to "fail" the cast if rooted during the brief time between cast begin and cast complete (0.25 seconds -- the same cast time or shorter than almost all of our non-ultimate stuns/roots). In this case, we have chosen to break a "tie" in two players beginning their cast simultaneously in favor of the stun/root caster. Nautilus, on the other hand, can't very well be locked out of casting his Q while rooted since its primary use case is not movement and so would frequently cast his Q only to find out that in our drive for consistency, we had set him up for failure (he was rooted when he cast the spell).

Perhaps a good compromise would be for us as a design team to more actively explain our game rules so that when confronted with seeming oddities like this players could quickly learn about them rather than having to fish for forum responses or conduct elaborate custom game tests.


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Raloosh

Senior Member

08-30-2013

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Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
-snip-
Thanks for explaining all this, CertainlyTrueDamage.
It's nice to be able to know some of the rules of the game, especially such important ones.
Also, while others may not like you, I certainly do.


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