Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Koechophe

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzokuken View Post
Yakaru, how do you feel about the following scenario (bush related)

I have X bush warded (green ward), and im standing right next of that bush, but not inside, with Oracle's, but the Oraacle's can't reveal anything that's in there

Do you think it's a nice "mechanic", because i feel it's extremely frustrating
I feel like giving oracle's true sight of the bushes that you normally wouldn't have sight of would make the item far too powerful.


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Etheric42

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Member

08-26-2013

I don't understand what all this hand-wringing about skillshots is for. Offensive, defensive, who cares? When Taric heals an ally in the bush, isn't he revealed? I thought he used to be. Why don't skill just reveal you from brush on cast all the time?

It sure makes the trap/'shroom issue moot. Of course it wouldn't reveal on damage, it reveals on placement (cast).

And if you want to preserve any neat interactions like Nunu's ult, why not make certain skills "stealth" skills that don't reveal you in brush? Make them a keyword that can described as part of the power.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

08-26-2013
10 of 23 Riot Posts

This is a really good discussion, Yakaru. Why don't you post more?


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GoodBadUglyHoe

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Heimerdinger- Just sayin


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TheGosuStandard

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I am undecided on whether Varus' Q should reveal him, I think going into a bush allows him to use the element of surprise, otherwise his Q seems easy to avoid at max range.


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DowncastHarp

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Talking about the minimap glitch. It's something that I've seen occur more recently (like within the last two or three patches).

I don't know if it's related to this but there's a visual thing where if someone on the enemy team walks into the fog of war to go recall; when they come back from base and into your view, the recall circles will sometimes still show around where they were when they entered your view even though they aren't recalling.

I also noticed an occurrence with the visual effect around champions with pots ticking. An enemy enters brush with a pot ticking, and when they leave the bush or get revealed the animation will "jump" from where they entered the brush to where they are revealed.

I don't know if either of these are intended or if I'm the only one that's noticed this, but I've been noticing the recall circles thing for quite awhile now (like, probably a year or so now. I can't quite remember. Whichever it is, I noticed it long before I noticed the minimap appearance glitch.)

Does this make sense to you?


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Yoruichi

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hi everyone,

I've been quiet for a while so for those of you who who don't know me I'm Yakaru and I'm one of the Senior Gameplay Engineers. I'm pretty well known as a hardcore tabletop gamer and for my Ninja 300 motorcycle.

I've been looking at fog of war and brush and I've noticed a lot of things that are strange, which made me realize the rules for brush/fog aren't as clean and consistent as they could be. If you have a few minutes would you mind sharing your thoughts with me?

Here's some facts:
* Autoattacks will always reveal you through brush
* Nunu's ultimate (Absolute Zero) doesn't reveal him in brush while he's charging
* Blitzcrank Rocket Grabs will show you his fist but not Blitzcrank himself
* Nidalee throwing her spears (Q) also doesn't reveal her
* Taric's Dazzle does reveal him
* Nunu's Iceball will reveal him

I can get into the details of why it's like this, but the more important question is how SHOULD it work and why?

My gut instincts are that any 'aggressive' action should probably reveal you -- if a spell is dealing damage, slows, roots, or stuns, for example, it should reveal the caster. This is an easy to understand rule and is very easy to understand and explain to new players, but I'm not sure about this, what do you guys think?

Thanks much!
~Yakaru
There seems to be a fog glitch. Several times I've seen a person coming up the brushes, just a split second on my screen (not the minimap) and like 2 seconds later their jungler comes along but I'm already in a defensive position.

Your casters call it "6th sense" during the LCS.

Also, regarding your OP. I rather like that Nidalee is the master of the brush. That's her domain and it's always been her playstyle. It would feel dirty to me to take it away from her. I say this as somebody who plays Nid like, once every 2 months or so.


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t4tNoFp4Ve

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koechophe View Post
I feel like giving oracle's true sight of the bushes that you normally wouldn't have sight of would make the item far too powerful.
Read my post again, i stated that "said bush" already have a green (my green) on it, and im standing right next to it, with an oracle's, but even when i already have vision of the bush, and Oracle's is on range of detection but im not inside of the bush, oracle still can't detect anything

and i repeat, that's when you already have vision of the bush


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Arance

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I think brush mechanics are pretty good as-is, although they could definitely use a tune-up to be more consistent. To break it down:

-Auto-attacks and all abilities that must target an enemy reveal the user in the brush when used.
-Skill shots, AoEs, and anything that is cast on an ally does not reveal the user.
-Skill shots are instantly visible the moment they leave the brush/fog of war. (This is what needs fixing to have air tight code.)

This I believe is how it is intended to work on live servers currently, and I think it works fine. However, if people are concerned about invisible Nunu ults (the center of the AoE is hidden, therefore the entire thing is) and arguably 'unfair' skillshots, I propose a compromise I think would work:

-Skill shots and AoE abilities that are in brush are visible the moment they are cast, but they do not reveal the user.

This way you'll know exactly when the ability is used same as out of brush, but you won't be able to directly see the champion who casted it. i.e. Nunu ult in brush, gigantic snowstorm AoE becomes visible to all players, but Nunu himself remains hidden unless enemy team has vision on him in brush. Nid throws spear, enemies are able to instantly see the spear fly but do not have vision of Nidalee unless they have vision on her in brush.

I think that would work out well.

EDIT: Oh, also, can you check on how things should work when any ally auto-attacks next to you in the brush? I swear I've been revealed in brush because of an ally attacking from it and its very irritating.


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Henry Plainview

Senior Member

08-26-2013

One thing that really annoys me is when I put a pink in river, and it does not reveal a green ward the enemy put in the bush (obviously after I step into the bush). This makes no sense, the pink should reveal any invisible things in its radius, and it makes me completely waste my pink.