Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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TheDevicer

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Props on having THE BEST avatar out of any Rioter. Bumps you up on my list. Play Magic, by any chance?

Anyways, pretty much any aggression should reveal you. There is very little you can do against FoW barrage of spears because you aren't given adequate warning to play around the ability as it was intended. I can't creep block or move around the skillshots if I can't judge where I'm being hit from fast enough. It gets even worse with projectiles like Mystic Shot which are on low-mana costs and cooldowns and have sizable range. Whatever the decision, make brush consistent. Its annoying when certain abilities work outside of the conventions you've become used to.


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Masalar

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Member

08-26-2013

Using Nunu's ult as an example is tricky, as his case is, as I said earlier, very unique. I'm having a hard time thinking of anything else that applies CC for a while before causing damage that is also, for the sake of this discussion, a skill shot.

If you make Nunu's ult reveal him instantly, it becomes that much harder to ever get the full duration off. In fact, getting the full duration off AND hitting someone with it (without teammates locking them in place) may become nearly impossible.

So I did a check and these are all the champions with abilities even remotely similar to Nunu's ult. Galio's Ult, Gangplank's Ult, Lux's Lucent Singularity, Maokai's Ult, Swain's root.

Galio's Ult requires you to attack him, so he has to be revealed.
Gangplank's ult CAN slow before doing damage. But due to its random nature I'm not sure it's applicable.
Lux's Lucent singularity is the closest to Nunu's Ult of the lot. I can't check right now, but how does it handle brush use?
Maokai's ult I included due to the fact that it can sit in wait in a brush before causing damage, but it doesn't apply cc. Could be interesting to see how it handles brush.
And same with Swain's snare. How does it handle being used in a brush?

For all of them, Lux's and Swain's especially, I'm meaning how do they handle being cast on the very edge of the inside of brush (by someone also in brush) while affecting those outside the brush.

This is all for the sake of consistency, sure, but all of these except Nunu's ult feel like such uncommon occurrences, I'm not sure anyone would ever notice the change...except Nunu.

Lastly, the vast majority of player's complaints about brush consistency had to do with invisible skill shots. With those fixed...I dunno, I feel like the brush is in a good spot.

*Edited for a few silly grammar mistakes.


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Dig Dux

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masalar View Post
Lastly, the vast majority of player's complaints about brush consistency had to do with invisible skill shots. With those fixed...I dunno, I feel like the brush is in a good spot.
This is it though every once in a while spears still kill me from a mile away while stealthed

I need to buy more pink wards


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LimitlessChaos

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I'm inclined to agree with the initial post's sentiment about aggressive action but I'll further it by saying that any time a champion puts some extension of himself into the fray, it should reveal him, more or less. Why should Nidalee not be revealed for a sec after throwing a spear but if Caitlyn auto-attacks she's revealed until that projectile reaches its target? Simple. Nidalee should be revealed for the duration of the spear's existence as it's an extension of her presence.

I'd forgive the Nidalee spears and Jayce blasts though for eradication of the whole Nunu thing. That a champion can cast an ability that is that powerful and reaching from completely hidden reaches is ludicrous.

Basically - if a champion's presence is put from brush into an enemy champion's field of view, that champion should be revealed - plain and simple. This isn't some bull**** skill case, it's just poor planning for a game where you have a top-down/ three-quarters view and **** comes flying at you out of fog of war.

All that said, I think that you could probably make some variable rules for this concerning terrain - a Nid spear from behind impassible terrain / vision-blocking impassible terrain should not reveal her since that's a fairly extreme sniping case and could at least have some strategic ramifications in terms of where she and other champs would make decisions to fire from.


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PallasAthens

Senior Member

08-26-2013

How about you lower the amount of wards available to buy. Then bushes matter.


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Noraver

Senior Member

08-26-2013

There are a few places (mainly bottom bushes) where an enemy can stand IN the bush, but on a specific edge, and you can't see them. I've seen it done a few times, and it's really annoying when supports sit there and poke.

Other than that, I'd just like to see invisible skillshots be fixed permanently, like they were promised over a year ago.


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snead

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hi everyone,

I've been quiet for a while so for those of you who who don't know me I'm Yakaru and I'm one of the Senior Gameplay Engineers. I'm pretty well known as a hardcore tabletop gamer and for my Ninja 300 motorcycle.

I've been looking at fog of war and brush and I've noticed a lot of things that are strange, which made me realize the rules for brush/fog aren't as clean and consistent as they could be. If you have a few minutes would you mind sharing your thoughts with me?

Here's some facts:
* Autoattacks will always reveal you through brush
* Nunu's ultimate (Absolute Zero) doesn't reveal him in brush while he's charging
* Blitzcrank Rocket Grabs will show you his fist but not Blitzcrank himself
* Nidalee throwing her spears (Q) also doesn't reveal her
* Taric's Dazzle does reveal him
* Nunu's Iceball will reveal him

I can get into the details of why it's like this, but the more important question is how SHOULD it work and why?

My gut instincts are that any 'aggressive' action should probably reveal you -- if a spell is dealing damage, slows, roots, or stuns, for example, it should reveal the caster. This is an easy to understand rule and is very easy to understand and explain to new players, but I'm not sure about this, what do you guys think?

Thanks much!
~Yakaru

I think you already came to the conclusion. Spells that DO hit DO reveal. Taric's E and Nunu's E aren't skillshots and will hit. Blitz & Nid q's are both skillshots.


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Sty13z

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
My gut instincts are that any 'aggressive' action should probably reveal you -- if a spell is dealing damage, slows, roots, or stuns, for example, it should reveal the caster. This is an easy to understand rule and is very easy to understand and explain to new players, but I'm not sure about this, what do you guys think?

Thanks much!
~Yakaru
Tbh, I thought I had a pretty good grasp on the whole "fog of war/bushes" thing, but your post just opened a whole new can of worms for me!

Riddle me this Yakaru...
Sona's Q (damage) does not reveal her in the brush
Sona's W (heal) DOES reveal her in the brush

[insert thinking raptor here]


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Squippit

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Another question:

Are Fiddle, Karthus, and Kennen revealed whilst their self-surrounding AoEs are going on even if nothing is being damaged? Are the AoEs visible outside the bush while the champion is not? Are they invisible until walked into?

(Morgana not included because AoE centered around self is not persistent and requires that another champion already be damaged from the start of the ult)


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Troy242621

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Romeemperor View Post
I like it the way it is. Skillshots shouldn't reveal because they aren't guaranteed to land. Targeted abilities reveal as they should, because the effect is guaranteed and it leaves room for possible counterattack.

Edit : However, feel free to clean up some skillshots remaining invisible when fired from brush/FoW (Nidalee's Spear comes to mind)
Invisible skillshots (The projectiles themselves) are the plague of Runterra. I don't know what causes these, but I feel like this has something to do with it, and I wish it'd get fixed.