A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Fabled Fox

Junior Member

08-24-2013

I think Scarizard is a pretty cool guy. Eh reworks Rengar and doesn't afraid of anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadion View Post
the ferocity gain and the stealth be synced so the moment you can enter stealth is the moment you reach maximum Ferocity.
Seconded


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Possibly have the stacks allow for the movement speed to remain after Hunt is over. As the burst is more spread out it would be helpful for Rengar to be able close the gap more easily after blowing a flash or escape, and my biggest concern is that Rengar will still have the gameplay of suicide for carries, with a higher possibility of failure. This would allow Rengar to either maintain his pursuit of a slippery target, or escape after he kills them or if they get to a secure position.

Also could make it so that it begins if Stalk is activated, meaning that he still loses out on movement speed, but can still extend his reach during stealth. Don't know, seems kind of problematic with stealth. Maybe add something else for Stalk?

Also kind of conflicts with his Bonetooth Necklace upgrade, 14 I believe.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NA Darklarik

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey dudes, sorry for going mostly silent this week - had a lot to get done and i don't like to post when i know i won't have time to follow up with y'all (this is why last week's post came on a Friday evening so i had all weekend to keep talking)

So i'm likely going to format this horrendously because i'm at home and don't have a screencap of the tooltip, but here's the new idea for Rengar's ultimate:

Thrill of the Hunt

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

After a few seconds, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to enter Stalk.

Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

If i can clarify more, let me know. The basics are that Rengar players get to choose which is best for the situation - to Speedcat for a chase or cleanup? or Stealthcat for an ambush or otherwise awesome juke? I'm excited about this version because it has a lot of flexibility in what Rengar can do throughout the game (by retaining Higher % MS than is on live via Hunt, but retaining the Stealth Ambush in Stalk) but doesn't let you just hit R and run without being smart about it.

Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
Personally, i think duration is the best. You could work something out with cooldown, but Stealth ult duration is the best i can think off.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sedirex

Junior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I could see myself going as low as 10%, but i've there's always been a dissonance to me of 'I'M INVISIBLE' and 'I'M RUNNING REALLY FAST' - if he ends up needing a very, very low MS then obviously i'll give it but for first pass i want to be firm about the tradeoffs he's getting.
You've probably thought of this already, but giving him MS for stalk for his "empowered" R is an option. I like that he has a better chance of using it offensively than defensively, since if you're trying to get out you probably won't worry about your ferocity before ulting - you need that MS NOW. The disadvantage would be the disconnect between "I had ferocity before I hunted" and "I can stalk faster" - a few seconds may be too long of a gap between cause and effect.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-24-2013
59 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archadion View Post
First off, thanks for responding.

Second, I wasn't suggesting that entering Stalk would drain your Ferocity. I was just suggesting that the ferocity gain and the stealth be synced so the moment you can enter stealth is the moment you reach maximum Ferocity. Draining the Ferocity upon entering stealth would be too much of a downside; you wouldn't be able to jump on them and start chaining Qs.

Third...isn't that the point of Rengar's Ferocity? His abilities on their own are good, but his playstyle is all about intelligent use of Ferocity. If you gank a lane without four or five ferocity, you won't be able to chain-CC and snare them, or get your full damage combo off. I'm not saying you don't necessarily have good reason to shy away from this line of thinking. But you said yourself that you found the stealthless Rengar ultimate to be just as satisfying as the old Stealth one. So you're not really blocking off a large portion of power, you're just unlocking more clever play options if you manage your Ferocity well. And that sounds just like his other abilities. Sure, you could just spam spells mindlessly. Or you could manage a triple-Q or an E-Empowered E chain to keep them constantly CCed so you can catch up to them. His Ferocity-based kit rewards intelligent play by opening up new opportunities. You can Q them, or if you take the time to get four ferocity you can double-Q them for more damage. You can sustain by building up ferocity to get a W. You can E them from the bushes to try and get a kill, or you can use an empowered E and snare them in place to start stabbing. From how you've described the Stalk section of his R, it feels more like a slight bonus rather than an integral part of the kit. It isn't that he can only gank through using his Hunt and then switching to Stalk. It's that, if you're clever, you can use Hunt to see where they are and get close to them, then use Stalk to get right up to them without them noticing and stab their face off.

It's the difference between ganking with an E and then relying on them being slower than you, or ganking with an empowered E and relying on them not being able to react at all.

Edit: sorry if I'm seeming stubborn, I'm just curious as to your reasonings.
I'm likely derping here...but i thought in my post i said i've already done what you suggested in syncing the time you can re-cast R with the time you regain your ferocity. I think we're using a lot of words to say that we agree here.

As for your giant point about Ferocity management being a big part of Rengar - you're totally correct. Generally though for Ultimates we like to try and cut down on the mindshare players have to deal with - Zac is sacrificing health to make deferred Health Blobs, but his ult costs no HP and lets you pick up blobs while bouncing. No energy user has an ult that costs Energy, despite Energy being a very manage-y system. This is to preserve the feeling of ultimates making you more powerful and epic even if you can't get the other stuff down - in fact, the only times we let ults fail/get interrupted are when their success cases feel more epic when they do succeed (Ace in the Hole and for a more recent example, The Culling). While i'd definitely like to see a slight gain for optimization (I'm at 5 ferocity, so i get a slight bonus) - letting Rengar's Ultimate cheat the system and not punish him for managing his Ferocity super well is in line with what i'd expect most ults to do.

...the above tl;dr is likely just some general design talk, but rereading your post i think we're agreeing on the R2 + Ferocity timing.

Gonna grab lunch, it's almost 5 and i woke up to post this a while ago and haven't eaten anything since @_@ - brb y'all


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raiyn

Senior Member

08-24-2013

New ult sounds cool and fair.

I still hope the battle roar changes are not going through. AD reduction is still awful and adding AP reduction to the mix will be just as clunky.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

RadiantWings

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-24-2013

One of the main problems I have currently with Rengar is that with slippery targets like Vayne or Ezreal, it's just not worth it to even try to Empower bola in a lockdown attempt. He doesn't put out meaningful damage because too much time is spent chasing them even with the slow, so the only thing that matters is mashing Q as fast as possible in an attempt to erase them before they can react. Making him less bursty will just get rid of the "erase" option and leave him with the gimped Bola option (which can now miss).

Also, in a prolonged combat scenario, Rengar is going to get nuked in a second, but adding defenses onto Thrill of the Hunt seems counter-intuitive to the Roar change.


Let's go with the duration extension from spending Ferocity but change the new iteration of Thrill of the Hunt to something like this:

Hunt will remain the same.

Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth for X seconds. Entering stealth will reduce the duration of Thrill of the Hunt by Y seconds. Stalk can be recast as long as Thrill of the Hunt persists. Z second cooldown.

(X can be more or less than the remaining duration of Thrill of the Hunt.)


This change of course, will be big. Rengar can now trade raw damage from spending Ferocity on his empowered abilities and convert it directly into chasing power and survivability. Stalk can be used to both clear targeting *and* give himself an instant gapcloser. A hefty duration cost per use of stalk will force you to make the "now or later?" type of decisions while the cooldown on recast would limit it from being too overbearing in the way Akali might be.
So instead of just of one decision (whether you need Stealthcat now or later), you can now switch gears between Speedcat, Stealthcat and Rocketcat.

Being able to recast once or twice with max Ferocity seems appropriate.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Steamcario

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.
how about for each point of ferocity consumed, the first auto out of the ult silences the target for .2 seconds or something? one of the most annoying things as rengar is to jump on a squishy and they just mobility away before I could even bola. Though longer bola range and the fact that this removes counterplay to rengar's ult is kinda ehhhhhh.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

xToastedBreadx

Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Hey dudes, sorry for going mostly silent this week - had a lot to get done and i don't like to post when i know i won't have time to follow up with y'all (this is why last week's post came on a Friday evening so i had all weekend to keep talking)

So i'm likely going to format this horrendously because i'm at home and don't have a screencap of the tooltip, but here's the new idea for Rengar's ultimate:

Thrill of the Hunt

Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.

After a few seconds, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to enter Stalk.

Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.

If i can clarify more, let me know. The basics are that Rengar players get to choose which is best for the situation - to Speedcat for a chase or cleanup? or Stealthcat for an ambush or otherwise awesome juke? I'm excited about this version because it has a lot of flexibility in what Rengar can do throughout the game (by retaining Higher % MS than is on live via Hunt, but retaining the Stealth Ambush in Stalk) but doesn't let you just hit R and run without being smart about it.

Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
I love you now. This is actually one of the best idea's you've made for the Rengar rework. It gives MUCH more flexibility on his ult and can make game changing decisions. Please keep up the good work for us!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Archadion

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I'm likely derping here...but i thought in my post i said i've already done what you suggested in syncing the time you can re-cast R with the time you regain your ferocity. I think we're using a lot of words to say that we agree here.

As for your giant point about Ferocity management being a big part of Rengar - you're totally correct. Generally though for Ultimates we like to try and cut down on the mindshare players have to deal with - Zac is sacrificing health to make deferred Health Blobs, but his ult costs no HP and lets you pick up blobs while bouncing. No energy user has an ult that costs Energy, despite Energy being a very manage-y system. This is to preserve the feeling of ultimates making you more powerful and epic even if you can't get the other stuff down - in fact, the only times we let ults fail/get interrupted are when their success cases feel more epic when they do succeed (Ace in the Hole and for a more recent example, The Culling). While i'd definitely like to see a slight gain for optimization (I'm at 5 ferocity, so i get a slight bonus) - letting Rengar's Ultimate cheat the system and not punish him for managing his Ferocity super well is in line with what i'd expect most ults to do.

...the above tl;dr is likely just some general design talk, but rereading your post i think we're agreeing on the R2 + Ferocity timing.

Gonna grab lunch, it's almost 5 and i woke up to post this a while ago and haven't eaten anything since @_@ - brb y'all
Yeah, you did say you'd done that, but then you started talking about not wanting Stalk to drain Ferocity, which I also totally agree with and never suggested. That's mainly what I was pointing out. Anyway, point is, we agree.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this, especially since you need to eat. I definitely hadn't considered the Energy example. That's an interesting insight into the design process. Thinking about it, it's the same with Renekton and Viktor.

Talking about all that made me think of an alternative to any pure stat/duration increases. Because any stat or duration boost inherently makes a non-optimised ultimate feel worse, as you said. What happened with the idea of a voice line playing for everyone when he ults? I don't remember what you eventually decided to do with that. Right now I'm imagining ulting at five Ferocity to be more of a personal satisfaction thing rather than a "you get a huge bonus" thing. What if ulting on full Ferocity meant that everyone heard the voice line? I mean, think about Nocturne's ultimate. Is there anything other than a Fiddlesticks ult that provokes more fear than hearing "DARKNESSSS"? Not really. I seem to remember you moved away from the voice line playing because people in this thread decided it let everyone know that Rengar was coming. But Rengar's a confident hunter, and if he's particularly ferocious (nudge nudge wink wink) I could see him using it as a fear tactic.

tl;dr, instead of a duration increase, what if the voice line played only if you had full ferocity. If you want to be stealthy about the ultimate and you're on max ferocity, you just need to tap E before you R. If you want people to know you're coming, you can build up to full ferocity before you ult and watch the enemy team scatter and retreat towards the nearest tower in pure terror.