A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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EyceAether

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.
Every stack increases the leap range by 25 units.

OR

The first stack grants an additional charge to Unseen Predator, this charges countdown is only started when the player uses the first charge. For every additional stack of Ferocity, the charge on the second stack of Unseen Preadator lasts for 1 second longer.

Basically, Rengar gets a second leap for a few seconds after he uses the first.


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NullDragon

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
As for that bonus, it's possible - except that he already gets quite a bit of attack speed, and builds AD. It's not saying that we couldn't do it - AS fits within the paradigm of of less burst more sustained, but i'd want to hear more and brainstorm before i defaulted to just 'damage output'. I'd hate to make any of Rengar's spells hit less hard just because he has a steroid on his ult.
The solution seems fairly obvious. Thrill of the Hunt is usually done before either a teamfight, or a gank.

Why not just give him survivability? I'd go for either extra MR or Armor... or bonus health.

Why bonus health? It makes him more fun to jungle with. You're low on health, you use your ult, you get a pseudoheal to keep yourself alive for a better gank. If they don't fight back, well, you still have that health. Likely lasting for, say, 5 seconds after the ult ends. Should be enough that it's possible to kite him until it ends, then turn on him, possibly coupled with how long the movespeed lasts.


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chico3530

Junior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Currently, Yes.
You could also for example give his ultimate a 20-25 seconds duration, but he time you switch from Hunt to Stalk, the duration would be decreased by 5 sec. This way, you can adapt to the situation by switching from stealth to mov. speed or from mov. speed to stealth, but at some cost if done too many times.
Sorry for bad english, it's not my native language

Note: The duration of the ultimate would only be decreased from switching from Hunt to Stalk but not from the other way.


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Chaosos

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Thanks I've mentioned gigasplitpushrengar a couple times but I felt it got buried among the stealth concerns. I'd rather the lever be flipped before the rework goes live than have 3-4 weeks of gigasplitpushrengar on live then have it removed.


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

08-24-2013

you could make this effect for the R ferocity

rengar empowers his R reducing the CD by 4/8/12/16/20 seconds



there are many ideas that can work, reducing the CD for empowerment, giving extra survival after his leap (which he will likely still need badly for team fights) and more


the problem with making him have extra damage is that it makes balancing his normal damage harder


her is another idea for it

when thrill of the hunt consumes ferocity it reduces the movement speed lost when stalking by X%

an example being


lets say rank 3 rengar gets 60% MS while not stalking

stalking 'becomes' (remember this is an example) a -50% of bonus MS making his stalk have 30% MS bonus

so consuming ferocity causes rengar to reduce his MS lost by 10/20/30/40/50%

meaning instead of 30% in stalk he will have 45% because the penalty of the bonus MS is reduced by 50% making it

-.5 X .5 = -.25% or a 25% speed loss instead of a 50% speed loss so it effectively gives a reduced penalty in MS while stalking for consuming ferocity and the more ferocity used, the more effective it is


just a few ideas


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Borand

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Scarizard, I think lots of us would like to know about these.. Sorry for reposting and thanks in advance if you decide to reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borand View Post
First of all, welcome back Mr. Scarizard. Seems like the DevTracker still considers you to be a Dev :P

I'd like to say that this certainly feels better than before. I would really want to hear your take on the following:

1. What do you think of Rengar being able to switch through modes until taking offensive action or duration ends? [KINDA ANSWERED]

2. Is Rengar going to have any other tools to re-leap on his target once he's been kited?

3. There's a problem with the current itteration of battle roar that limits itself to the subgroup that battle roar should affect. Can you please at least let us know if you'll hold a discussion with us about our concerns?

Thanks in advance if you decide to respond (please? )


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Steamcario

Senior Member

08-24-2013

I am now happy with this rework. horray.


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Archadion

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I've had this idea as well but shyed away from implementing it first because ideally whatever thing the bonus provides doesn't really have the power budget to be super necessary - i'd hate for people to use their ult, and then realize they wanted the option to stalk but then didn't have the foresight to build enough ferocity.

I've already sync'd the delay on Activating Stalk and reaching 5 Ferocity - i've definitely had the same thought you have that going into Stalk would cost you the 5 Ferocity, but seeing as i want this to be a low-duration Stealth, fitting another cycle of Ferocity Generation into the Stealth seems ill-advised. While in Stealth, you have to be opportunistic and prepared. I wouldn't want someone to be forced to leap in Stealth without their 5-stack ready.

Not saying this wouldn't ever happen, but i don't see the particular gains of it as of now. The biggest win here i think is syncing the time window you have to enter Stalk with your Ferocity Gen, as it provides two sources of visual feedback (5s CD window on R, and your Resource Bar) as an indicator of when you can re-activate R.
First off, thanks for responding.

Second, I wasn't suggesting that entering Stalk would drain your Ferocity. I was just suggesting that the ferocity gain and the stealth be synced so the moment you can enter stealth is the moment you reach maximum Ferocity. Draining the Ferocity upon entering stealth would be too much of a downside; you wouldn't be able to jump on them and start chaining Qs.

Third...isn't that the point of Rengar's Ferocity? His abilities on their own are good, but his playstyle is all about intelligent use of Ferocity. If you gank a lane without four or five ferocity, you won't be able to chain-CC and snare them, or get your full damage combo off. I'm not saying you don't necessarily have good reason to shy away from this line of thinking. But you said yourself that you found the stealthless Rengar ultimate to be just as satisfying as the old Stealth one. So you're not really blocking off a large portion of power, you're just unlocking more clever play options if you manage your Ferocity well. And that sounds just like his other abilities. Sure, you could just spam spells mindlessly. Or you could manage a triple-Q or an E-Empowered E chain to keep them constantly CCed so you can catch up to them. His Ferocity-based kit rewards intelligent play by opening up new opportunities. You can Q them, or if you take the time to get four ferocity you can double-Q them for more damage. You can sustain by building up ferocity to get a W. You can E them from the bushes to try and get a kill, or you can use an empowered E and snare them in place to start stabbing. From how you've described the Stalk section of his R, it feels more like a slight bonus rather than an integral part of the kit. It isn't that he can only gank through using his Hunt and then switching to Stalk. It's that, if you're clever, you can use Hunt to see where they are and get close to them, then use Stalk to get right up to them without them noticing and stab their face off.

It's the difference between ganking with an E and then relying on them being slower than you, or ganking with an empowered E and relying on them not being able to react at all.

Edit: sorry if I'm seeming stubborn, I'm just curious as to your reasonings.


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Storm Frog

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.

Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!
I don't like the idea of consuming Ferocity for direct power, the rest of his kit already does that. I'd rather see his ult consume Ferocity for some sort of reward on a kill/assist. Something like:

Thrill of the Hunt Ferocity Bonus: Rengar's next attack marks a single target for X seconds, kills and assists against that target generate X amount of bonus gold per Ferocity charge consumed.

Or

Thrill of the Hunt Ferocity Bonus: Rengar's next attack marks a single target. Upon killing the target, Rengar becomes stealthed for X seconds per Ferocity charge consumed.


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Currently, Yes.

So how about empowered hunt have him automatically go into stalk mode when it time is up that way the player doesn't have to time it and gains the most out of both versions of the ult while focusing on other things?