So you're planning to "Scaridize" talon?

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Lord Graves III

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Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Don't know where you got the idea that i'm planning to rework Talon. Let me be clear - not all things with low/no counterplay in our game are going to be reworked or straight up nerfed - just that their lack of counterplay makes it difficult to buff these champions. In my examples i cited Corki's Phosphorus Bomb as a skill with low counterplay, which kept us from buffing it by lowering the mana cost (which is easily the #1 change players wanted) - instead, we tiptoed around making missile barrage stronger and lowering other costs.

This is not 'rework talon'. This is not 'pick examples of champions that have low/no counterplay and Scarizard is going to ruin him for the entire playerbase'. All this is, is saying that champions with low/no counterplay can't have significant buffs or updates generally without solving these issues, or at least trading off power from their non-gameplay spell into their more gameplay spells (There have been nerfs for Varus/Zed where we took some amount of damage from their E skills, and then put them back on their more defining and risky Q's).

Talon's a really strong champion that i'm sure you know has been quoted by a ton of other reds as having one of the higher winrates in our game - i mained him from his release to about a month or so before i joined Riot, and can attest that he is super fun to play. The reality of the situation is you fight a talon in 3 steps - 1. You're Silenced. 2. He's invisible. 3. You or He is dead. There are counters to Talon, but his skill execution on a champion has no real counterplay.

I repeat, this does not mean Talon and all champions with low counterplay in our game are all going to get changes and everything you know is going to get wacky and the game will never look the same. All i'm saying is that instances of low counterplay keeps us from directly buffing/changing things about a character that will give a positive effect. In some cases (Like Nunu's consume mini-game in return for big consume nerfs) this can be creative and received well, but in other cases (Keep Corki's Q Manacost skyhigh but tweak the other stuff) holds us back from doing what we, and players would directly like.
Hey, its that guy who made those champions I like
For what its worth, your proposals for Rengar made me actually want to play him.


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Railage

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Insoy, I'm sorry your favorite champion is going to get bent over and pounded...

I always liked Talon.


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Lord Graves III

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Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Gildarts View Post
Lol Talon OP thats new.
Not OP.
Just unbuffable. They cannot/ will not buff talon in his current state.

Hes not OP. He is strong though. And hes frustrating to fight against.

I would know. I recieve the tears of my enemies in return for playing him


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insoy View Post
I can't read everything being posted, excuse me? I'm human >.>
from the very first page people have explained what counterplay is. I mean you can try to understand what it means so you don't have to worry about Talon getting nerfed (he isn't) and maybe provide some actual useful insight into the problem since you probably are very skilled with talon or you can complain about how UP talon is. Up to you. I won't repeat what I or others have said, but I'll just quote Scarizard he describes it pretty well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
-Rengar has a low win-rate and low ban-rate, so he doesn't have 0 counterplay?

To clarify, i never said that Thrill of the Hunt has no counterplay. There is a high degree of frustration with a champion that has Stealth+MS+Gapcloser on a single ability (coupled with high burst damage, to boot)- we had an initial refactoring that just had a few slight tweaks to Rengar, and we found that by releasing him back in that state he'd be powerful and more viable, but not any healthier to the game. Thrill of Hunt had enough frustration in the playing against case that introducing -more- counterplay to the Ultimate appropriately would allow us to go through with not only those changes, but any other that added power and fluidity to Rengar.

A lot of things in our game have no counterplay, typically present in our older champions. Morgana's Dark Binding is a classic example of good counterplay - it's a skillshot, blocked by minions, that has a great reward and good range. It's slow, but packs a punch. You can position within minions to force her out to use it, you can dodge - when it's down, she's weak for a period of time. Both players can feel skilled when both dodging or landing these abilities.

Corki's Phosphorus Bomb is an example of a spell with poor counterplay. If you're within range, he just kind of targets an area and it explodes with very very short windup and almost no visual tell, either that he is about to use it or on the area that's about to be affected. He just kind of does it - in this case, your opponent doesn't have a chance to dodge anything really - it's all on Corki to mess it up. That's your only 'counterplay' - hope the Corki player can't put his mouse cursor on you and press Q.

All-in-All, low/no counterplay skills in moderation aren't the worst in our game - they provide reliability and often times are 'glue' to kits - but they can also severely hold you back. In all of our recent Corki buffs over the months, we've changed many things with the exception of Phosphorus Bomb's Mana Cost, simply because the spell has such low counterplay that its rather huge managate is the only thing keeping it from breeding a lot of frustration when fighting Corki.

That may have all been pretty lecture-y, but by giving examples and establishing what i mean by counterplay i hope you can come to realize that Winrate, pickrate, and counterplay have very little to do with one another. Heck, winrate doesn't even mean that a champion is strong - Olaf was near-100% Pick/Ban in the World Championships/IPL5 in Season 2, as well as almost every event after that - despite an incredibly low winrate at the time to the general playerbase.

Rengar just...kind of appears and stabs your face off. Or, he fails in doing so and dies. Yes, pink-wards do exist - but when he's running super fast and has a long-range gapcloser whether or not you can see him, the pink ward doesn't really do anything but give you a moment's warning before he just kind of executes his buttons on you and you live or die. As i said before, this ult having a lack of counterplay doesn't make him OP PLS NERF - it just leads to a lot of scenarios where, when strong, it feels incredibly overbearing and unfun to play against. Which means in this case low counterplay holds him back from ever being a stronger champion in general - that's what i'm getting at here, if we buff Rengar without solving the counterplay, the number of situations where Thrill of the Hunt is a hopeless/foregone conclusion goes up as does the frustration with the champion. By finding ways to add counterplay or reduce frustration, we create an environment for a healthier Rengar to exist that is fun to play as/against, deepening the gameplay involved and opening the power budget for the champion.


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Lord Graves III

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08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathy Aro View Post
from the very first page people have explained what counterplay is. I mean you can try to understand what it means so you don't have to worry about Talon getting nerfed (he isn't) and maybe provide some actual useful insight into the problem since you probably are very skilled with talon or you can complain about how UP talon is. Up to you. I won't repeat what I or others have said, but I'll just quote Scarizard he describes it pretty well.

.....<3
I like you :3c


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Lowel

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Senior Member

08-20-2013

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Originally Posted by Lord Graves III View Post
Why :3 Why should some champions get to have low counterplay kits? It only means that they will never be allowed to be competitively viable and they will always be frustrating to fight against.

Also, Kha has weak crowd control. You can juke his jump with flash or other reposition. You can have minions tank his spikes. You can maintain visual of him to avoid him getting his passive. Kha has counterplay. When Kha zix kills you you can usually look at the fight and say, "Oh, thats what I could have done better." With Talon, you get far less of this.
Also, No one is arguing that Kassadin has high counterplay. Just that he has more than talon.
Also Tryndamere has somewhat esoteric counterplay (which is far from ideal) but its there. Focus him into burning his ult early, then treat him like a tank till it wears off (ignore and avoid him for the 5 second window).
You can't use flash to tell me that you can counter Kha jump. If you can then i can tell you : use cleanse to counter Talon silence. What about his reset ? How can you counter this. All your team worked hard to win the team fight BUT Kha got his reset and aced us. He already do a lot of damage, and he even have reset on his abilities, what could we have done better to counter his reset ?

You talked about proper positionning for Kha passive. I say the same thing : position yourself better, if you're behind your team, Talon won't reach you with his silence and even if he reach you, your teamate will be here to rape him : counter play.

If i take your exemple on kha and want to feel better, i can tell myself : I should've positionned better, I shouldn't let him leave my sight, my teamate shouldn't die to him and give reset, next time i'll buy oracle. I need some armor to counter his burst.
But Talon is all about : position yourself good, oracle, armor.

Kha's slow have a bigger range than Talon. Talon need to be in most ability range to cast it (easy to read if you ask me).

Kha can go in and out of a team fight with his reset. Talon is all in, live or die we never know.


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Rex Sanguinem

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khristophoros View Post
Instant silence that outranges most abilities which forces Talon's target to receive his full burst before they can do anything. That is the definition of no counterplay.
Theres nothing wrong with that though. Thats what he does, its what hes always done since he came out. No one has the right to remove somehting like that this late into Leagues development for no other reason then some ****ty Rioter (Scariz) wanting to make all champions binary and the same because he himself is probably piss poor at the game or something. And besides, if talon jumps in on someone like that, that person deserves death from an assassin. Also, if he does it into a team, hell most likely die because he has no real escape outside that and his ult which can be stopped through oracles and just bursting him


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

08-20-2013

*red post*
I'm actually curious to see if everyone in this thread gets to understand what counterplay means and a better idea of Riot's intentions or if we just get a bunch of downvoting. If its downvoting, maybe Rioters should consider different ways to address the players. Perhaps a dictionary quick definitions of commonly used terms like counterplay, toxin, antifun, and meta (well Riot doesn't use this, but it annoys me how people misuse this word).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Graves III View Post
.....<3
I like you :3c
I'm sure that'll pass if you read more of my posts.


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Insoy

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Don't know where you got the idea that i'm planning to rework Talon. Let me be clear - not all things with low/no counterplay in our game are going to be reworked or straight up nerfed - just that their lack of counterplay makes it difficult to buff these champions. In my examples i cited Corki's Phosphorus Bomb as a skill with low counterplay, which kept us from buffing it by lowering the mana cost (which is easily the #1 change players wanted) - instead, we tiptoed around making missile barrage stronger and lowering other costs.

This is not 'rework talon'. This is not 'pick examples of champions that have low/no counterplay and Scarizard is going to ruin him for the entire playerbase'. All this is, is saying that champions with low/no counterplay can't have significant buffs or updates generally without solving these issues, or at least trading off power from their non-gameplay spell into their more gameplay spells (There have been nerfs for Varus/Zed where we took some amount of damage from their E skills, and then put them back on their more defining and risky Q's).

Talon's a really strong champion that i'm sure you know has been quoted by a ton of other reds as having one of the higher winrates in our game - i mained him from his release to about a month or so before i joined Riot, and can attest that he is super fun to play. The reality of the situation is you fight a talon in 3 steps - 1. You're Silenced. 2. He's invisible. 3. You or He is dead. There are counters to Talon, but his skill execution on a champion has no real counterplay.

I repeat, this does not mean Talon and all champions with low counterplay in our game are all going to get changes and everything you know is going to get wacky and the game will never look the same. All i'm saying is that instances of low counterplay keeps us from directly buffing/changing things about a character that will give a positive effect. In some cases (Like Nunu's consume mini-game in return for big consume nerfs) this can be creative and received well, but in other cases (Keep Corki's Q Manacost skyhigh but tweak the other stuff) holds us back from doing what we, and players would directly like.
I don't like how your sentence started of with "I don't know' when you should know. But I don't think you have the right to even say you main a character just because I started off as him and such. I honestly don't think you are doing a great job with your work with Rengar nor do I think you showed any other good example in the past few weeks. It's sad to know I know much more than Talon than a person who works in this game nor this industry. The fact that so many stated against you on your "work" with rengar just shows. I'm sorry but this is how I really feel and I'm actually glad that you responded. Thanks


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Furi Kuri

Member

08-20-2013

After observing many of Scarizard posts, I look at him as another Morello, or Phreak. They talk about balance, but really they don't know what they're doing or thinking.