A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Shadow of Inari

Senior Member

08-19-2013

My feeling is that Rengar's most signature abilities are his leap from brush and the long range, 'quiet' truesight from his ultimate, which in concert with the speed boost allows him to identify unprotected targets and set up an ambush for them. His stealth, while core to his flavor as a champion, is not essential to his gameplay.

Both Rengar's flavor and his gameplay would be better served by Eve-style stealth, however Eve's passive takes a small paragraph to explain even briefly. Pinning that on the tooltip for Rengar's ultimate along with all its other effects would result in a rather dense block of text.


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Praetor Ferix

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Senior Member

08-19-2013

I was thinking with someone else about the new ult for Rengar. Maybe when he reaches a certain amount of movement speed he could drop onto all 4s and run like an actual cat. Maybe just like around 450 MS or 500 MS he does this.

Also I am not very keen on his E being a skill shot. I preferred it being point and click. And I am disappointed that there is no ult stealth, I am very interested to see how the Ult works now. I am hoping its put on the PBE soon so I can test it out for any gimmicks or bugs. I will wait till we can test him and postpone my judgement.


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HappyMaskSalesmn

Senior Member

08-19-2013

With the no stealth ult I can't help but think of a rampaging elephant as opposed to a stalking lion lol


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RYKK888

Recruiter

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krimson62 View Post
Players should have the responsibility of learning how to play against stealth. We're tired of the hand holding and coddling against players dying when they get caught out of position. Rengar can not kill a carry that is positioned well. That is the counterplay, a good group, and a fast peel. rengar is not hard to bring down. one well timed CC and he gets off 1 or 2 Q's which if an adc has any bit of a lead, he will survive just fine. there is your counterplay.
With no burst AND no stealth, I'm afraid of Rengar's ability to actually take out squishies now. With the current live, any targetted stun can easily shut down even a fed Rengar if your adc and team has any sense and teamwork. Rengar is my favorite champion from a playstyle/feel perspective. However, I was recently in a game with a very fed Rengar (15/5 or something) who kept ulting at the beginning of the fight, waiting for initiation, and then jumping on and killing our adc. I was Pantheon, and finally started simply waiting around for the jump as the rest of my team fought around me, and as soon as Rengar jumped out of stealth onto our Vayne, I would stun him. He would get one empowered Q off, but then Vayne and I would finish him off and clean up the rest of the fight. Against a good team comp and proper team play, Rengar is already very susceptible to hard CC. No stealth paired with less burst will make him even more easily countered by good planning and hard CC, unless he has enough tankiness or defense to survive the CC and then stick to his original target well.

I like how the move speed in his current test ult stays for a while after he jumps, but without stealth, it will be very hard to move around to get into position without being focused on the way, or to re-engage a fight.


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Pikmints

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Senior Member

08-19-2013

I'll admit that I haven't gone through the over 300 pages of posts to read if this was already pitched but...

What if Rengar's ultimate gave him true stealth while in bushes (like an active Teemo passive in a bush)? The invisibility aspect of it would wear off for the remaining duration of the ult once he used a spell or basic attack, yet he can go from bush to bush without attacking or casting spells to retain his invisibility inside each of them. This would be very situational and all in all not "too" good, but it could be viable in certain instances.

Scenario 1

Teammates at baron, you sitting in bush by purple team's wraiths. Enemy team goes to check baron all at once just as your team finishes up and you get baron buff. You ult in bush and the enemy team walks by you. First the Jarvan, then the Ahri, Taric and Caitlyn go trough together... Teemo gets ripped to shreds as the rest of the team is being wrecked by your team and you now have their escape path cut off.

Scenario 2

Your Taric and Caitlyn during the laning phase has the enemy lane pushed to turret, you as jungle Rengar sneak into the far bush in the lane unnoticed hoping to pick off the low health Twitch. Enemy Hecarim ganks because the lane needs help causing your support and adc to run into the bushes back to their turret for safety. You ult as the enemies approach the bush letting them chase the bot lane. First Hec goes, enemy Sona goes to give him support, then finally the low health Twitch moves closer to the bush in case he can help, just to find out how deadly the Rengar rework is.

Scenario 3

Teemo :This Riven just sits in the bush close to my tower and wrecks me when I farm. Can I get a gank?
Rengar : Put a ward in that bush. Trust me.
Teemo wards that bush with no complaints knowing that Rengar has teleport. Half a minute later Teemo goes to poke at Riven, immediately jungle Rengar activates ult then teleports to ward. Even if Riven sees a couple of effects from the teleport, by the time she figures out there's an invisible Rengar there, he and Teemo will be going for the kill.

Scenario 4

(I'm aware this one is defensive, but a character with stealth and them using it defensively is bound to happen.) Rengar is running from an enemy Nunu after an unfortunate invade into blue team's jungle, hoping to pull off a fancy maneuver since he is permaslowed by Nunu's chain slows. He runs to Dragon pit hoping to escape with a flash, but Nunu would just flash after him and keep on with the slows. Rengar's ult comes off cooldown right as he approaches the pit and activates it, not gaining enough movement speed (as expected) to successfully run away, and flashes right behind the dragon pit into the bush around red buff. Whether Nunu flashes into dragon pit, gives up and walks through the bush, or fail flashes, you are nearly guaranteed safety.

It seems that removing Rengar's stealth entirely would make some of the player base upset, but stealth can be a great source of strength. When Evelynn was a viable jungle, simply getting sight wards for the lanes gave false hope. Akali's shroud allows her to combo multiple enemies while giving her targeting immunity that also acts as a form of zoning. Rengar has a great burst potential and can stick to fleeing targets, meaning stealth for him would need to be very limited and tactical. I believe this middle ground, on top of the other changes they plan on making to his ult will make people much happier.


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Hellpyre

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Senior Member

08-19-2013

After a bit of time spent thinking about it, I realized that the Red's are right. In most circumstances, the stealth from Rengar's ult isn't what makes t possible for me to get to a squishy. It's the leap. Since that and triple-Q are both still available to me, I think it's a fine idea to take out the stealth if it means I get to turn knifecat up to Ludicrous Speed.

On a different note, when will W and E stack with their empowered versions? I always felt that the biggest part of Q2's ubiquity was that it was the only Empowered ability that gave a bonus on a double-cast.


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Aced in the hole

Member

08-19-2013

How about adding this to his passive:

Upon entering brush, Rengar gains increased movement speed and is stealthed after leaving brush for a set duration (ex. 1-3 seconds).


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Kelhan

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Bonethooth is pretty expensive for almost nothing.

The AD bonus is too low.


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Krimson62

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikmints View Post
I'll admit that I haven't gone through the over 300 pages of posts to read if this was already pitched but...

What if Rengar's ultimate gave him true stealth while in bushes (like an active Teemo passive in a bush)? This would be very situational and all in all not "too" good, but it could be viable in certain instances.

Scenario 1

Teammates at baron, you sitting in bush by purple team's wraiths. Enemy team goes to check baron all at once just as your team finishes up and you get baron buff. You ult in bush and the enemy team walks by you. First the Jarvan, then the Ahri, Taric and Caitlyn go trough together... Teemo gets ripped to shreds as the rest of the team is being wrecked by your team and you now have their escape path cut off.

Scenario 2

Your Taric and Caitlyn during the laning phase has the enemy lane pushed to turret, you as jungle Rengar sneak into the far bush in the lane unnoticed hoping to pick off the low health Twitch. Enemy Hecarim ganks because the lane needs help causing your support and adc to run into the bushes back to their turret for safety. You ult as the enemies approach the bush letting them chase the bot lane. First Hec goes, enemy Sona goes to give him support, then finally the low health Twitch moves closer to the bush in case he can help, just to find out how deadly the Rengar rework is.

Scenario 3

Teemo :This Riven just sits in the bush close to my tower and wrecks me when I farm. Can I get a gank?
Rengar : Put a ward in that bush. Trust me.
Teemo wards that bush with no complaints knowing that Rengar has teleport. Half a minute later Teemo goes to poke at Riven, immediately jungle Rengar activates ult then teleports to ward. Even if Riven sees a couple of effects from the teleport, by the time she figures out there's an invisible Rengar there, he and Teemo will be going for the kill.

Scenario 4

(I'm aware this one is defensive, but a character with stealth and them using it defensively is bound to happen.) Rengar is running from an enemy Nunu after an unfortunate invade into blue team's jungle, hoping to pull off a fancy maneuver since he is permaslowed by Nunu's chain slows. He runs to Dragon pit hoping to escape with a flash, but Nunu would just flash after him and keep on with the slows. Rengar's ult comes off cooldown right as he approaches the pit and activates it, not gaining enough movement speed (as expected) to successfully run away, and flashes right behind the dragon pit into the bush around red buff. Whether Nunu flashes into dragon pit, gives up and walks through the bush, or fail flashes, you are nearly guaranteed safety.

It seems that removing Rengar's stealth entirely would make some of the player base upset, but stealth can be a great source of strength. When Evelynn was a viable jungle, simply getting sight wards for the lanes gave false hope. Akali's shroud allows her to combo multiple enemies while giving her targeting immunity that also acts as a form of zoning. Rengar has a great burst potential and can stick to fleeing targets, meaning stealth for him would need to be very limited and tactical. I believe this middle ground, on top of the other changes they plan on making to his ult will make people much happier.
True stealth is silly and should never be implemented. even if only in bushes.


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N3CRlD

Member

08-19-2013

im pensive after the changes to karma on any reworks. because it seems they dont listen to the community at all