A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Krimson62

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsuusetsu View Post
Here are my ideas on Rengar


Q - Keep Q as is, but I enjoy the thought of the 'Q train' But only if it goes though once. (5 ferocity) Q Q W E Q.

W - Keep W as is. The Armor and Magic resistance is very important for him to do his job.

E - Skillshot is an interesting Idea. Id love to play test it and see if I like the change or not. Throwing it without a target is nice, but it would have to fly though minions, so I can harass champions. But that also gives him less wave clear....hard choice

R - My idea for this is simple. Give him a nice speed boost, and stealth him for 2-3 seconds on activation. This allows him to gank well, but not get away from any situation when getting ganked himself. When you run into lane for a gank, hit it just as you leave brush, and jump on them while in stealth. If you dont manage the jump, the stealth runs out, and they see you, and are able to react.
E becoming a skillshot would be a massive nerf to lane rengar.

if it doesn't hit minions, rengar loses a valuable early farming tool.
if it does hit minions, it will have shyvanas old E syndrome in the jungle where it loves to hit mini minions, and in lane would make it far less effective as harass, whereas you can simply stand in your minions to forever zone him back and away from brush.


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atyres View Post
You're thought process only makes ADC's go more glass cannon though and doesn't force actual counter play (which is wards, good tanking capability, and an ADC that can actually think). Taking away his stealth for "more counterplay" is just making him a watered down Yi, which is not healthy for the game. The game needs more diversity, not homogenization. That is part of what killed World of Warcraft, was when every single character became a slightly different flavor of the others.

Rengar's stealth needs to stay. ADC's need to learn how to cope with it, or there needs to be a meta shift. Game doesn't revolve around ADCs, but it sure is starting to feel like it with the nerfs to bruisers, the unwillingness to remove Frozen Gauntlet and BotRK from ADCs, and the nerfs to Assassins.
You're arguing two different things as if they're the same thing.

I agree 100% with your point about avoiding homogenization. In fact, that's what my post was talking about--I want Rengar to have his own distinct niche as the ultimate hunter. My argument was that he doesn't need an OP, low-counterplay ability to fill that distinct niche.

You're bringing up a red herring argument by talking about Riot loving ADC's. This remake is about Rengar as a healthy champion, not about how Riot may or may not favor ADC's. The argument here is if the current proposed changes help make Rengar a better champion while retaining his core concept. I feel like they do.


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NVDax

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post
See this? ^
That sort of post is why we can't have nice things.

The people mad about this aren't mad because because removing stealth doesn't make sense, but because people just like having stealth. So much so that they think stealth = Rengar's core mechanics.

COMPLETE BULL****.

What makes him Rengar is the mechanics that make you want to lurk and stalk your targets.
His brush-leap mechanic, his ult letting him see enemies in the fog of war, his bola... The stuff that lets him HUNT.



Maybe it's because those who disagree provide lame rebuttals and really were not constructive.

I have yet to see a single pro-stealth argument that doesn't summarized into one of the following:
  • Stealth is core to Rengar (with no supporting evidence beyond OPINION)
  • I like stealth, so you should keep it. (OPINION)
  • Rengar will be useless without stealth. (with NO EXPLANATION)

All completely stealth-biased nonsense that does not address the problems of the current Thrill of the Hunt at all.

Scar doesn't address them seriously because they should not be taken seriously.

Scarizard's already addressed the serious discussion of possibly making Rengar's stealth like Evelynn's stealth.
The rest is the forum's vocal minority having a tantrum.
Oh god this guy again. I let you go with the Twitch thing, I will not stand by and let you do the same to Rengar! What's your problem with stealth champions man? Why can't you leave them the **** alone, there is nothing wrong with them.


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
You're arguing two different things as if they're the same thing.

I agree 100% with your point about avoiding homogenization. In fact, that's what my post was talking about--I want Rengar to have his own distinct niche as the ultimate hunter. My argument was that he doesn't need an OP, low-counterplay ability to fill that distinct niche.

You're bringing up a red herring argument by talking about Riot loving ADC's. This remake is about Rengar as a healthy champion, not about how Riot may or may not favor ADC's. The argument here is if the current proposed changes help make Rengar a better champion while retaining his core concept. I feel like they do.
Its not really a red herring since its relevant. The idea is to protect squishies from being instagibbed by Rengar, because its considered low counterplay. He's saying that case shouldn't even exist, because squishy targets have the option of building enough armor to not get instagibbed. Essentially riot is balancing under the assumption that adc's and mages must build too squishy to survive a Rengar ult, which isn't necessarily true.

Now you can argue against that point, but it isn't a red herring.


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamsOfGrandeur View Post
See this? ^
That sort of post is why we can't have nice things.

The people mad about this aren't mad because because removing stealth doesn't make sense, but because people just like having stealth. So much so that they think stealth = Rengar's core mechanics.

COMPLETE BULL****.

What makes him Rengar is the mechanics that make you want to lurk and stalk your targets.
His brush-leap mechanic, his ult letting him see enemies in the fog of war, his bola... The stuff that lets him HUNT.



Maybe it's because those who disagree provide lame rebuttals and really were not constructive.

I have yet to see a single pro-stealth argument that doesn't summarized into one of the following:
  • Stealth is core to Rengar (with no supporting evidence beyond OPINION)
  • I like stealth, so you should keep it. (OPINION)
  • Rengar will be useless without stealth. (with NO EXPLANATION)

All completely stealth-biased nonsense that does not address the problems of the current Thrill of the Hunt at all.

Scar doesn't address them seriously because they should not be taken seriously.

Scarizard's already addressed the serious discussion of possibly making Rengar's stealth like Evelynn's stealth.
The rest is the forum's vocal minority having a tantrum.
Lol, I think opinions are fairly important when you're talking about what makes a character fun to play. Wouldn't you say?


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DreamsOfGrandeur

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Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn View Post
Be honest with me. How many pages of this thread have you read before you posted this trash? Many people have provided detailed atguments as to why Rengar needs stealth and how ad reduction on his wis absolute garbage. One poster who you will find someone quoted for the 5th time now (Ddc thanatoz posted pg 302 for the 6/7th time) made a detailed explanation as to why stealth IS rengar and as to why the Q train and W ad reduction are idiotic.

Here's a tldr for you since you have reading comprehension problems or just dont read im not sure which. But its a pretty bad generalization to say gd is whining and that's why scarizard isn't vocalizing contrary opinions to his own. Instead I would like to see a response to some of the huge detailed posts like thanatoz's rather than the small ones that always favour scarizards rework that he responds to.

This is turning out worse than the karma rework in terms of hearing player feedback

Rengar stealth is predator stealth he isn't rengar or a predatpr without it
Ad reduction is garbage it doesn't work on tryn or trundle and it has no effect vs mages making rengar more vulnerable than he was before. Especially to ap top laners
Q train makes him a boring bruiser and is unlikely to be effective as jt requires constant melee ; something that cc prevents on assassins/madc I.e. imagine tryn he doesn't teamfight well bc cc ruins him. Q train would be ruined the same way
Yeah, I've seen all those posts and guess what?

It's all rooted in the thought process that Rengar is an assassin first.

Which is NOT what Rengar is suppose to be, that's why Riot is changing him in the first place. So all those arguments DON'T ACTUALLY WORK.

If you look at Rengar as a fighter first and assassin second, stealth is not necessary.



Thematically, hunter aren't the same as assassins. They don't blend into the environment the same way.

They lurk outside of detectable range, then when opportunity presents itself, swoop in and dominate.
Dominate is similar to Kill (which is what assassins do) but not exactly the same.


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alfavhunter

Senior Member

08-19-2013

make rengars E pass through minions, but effect all minons in the path (damage wise)

but it only applies the slow to champions


if rengars E deals damage to anything when used it gains 1 ferocity, regardless of the number of targets hit


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Krimson62

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
You're arguing two different things as if they're the same thing.

I agree 100% with your point about avoiding homogenization. In fact, that's what my post was talking about--I want Rengar to have his own distinct niche as the ultimate hunter. My argument was that he doesn't need an OP, low-counterplay ability to fill that distinct niche.

You're bringing up a red herring argument by talking about Riot loving ADC's. This remake is about Rengar as a healthy champion, not about how Riot may or may not favor ADC's. The argument here is if the current proposed changes help make Rengar a better champion while retaining his core concept. I feel like they do.
his ULTIMATE ability, is stealth for him, and a revealing of the enemy.

He can see you, but you cannot see him. that is the "feel" of rengars ultimate. that is how he was designed to feel. Like a two way mirror.

If they want to balance it, make his vocalizations GLOBAL, not just in the area revealed. that way everyone knows he ulted, and he is hunting, but no one knows who. however reds have already given some BS reason they don't like that route and feel it would be a buff (which is absurd)

All they want to do is nerf, they keep taking away power, nd giving nothing in return to a champion that is already NOT overpowered...

Players should have the responsibility of learning how to play against stealth. We're tired of the hand holding and coddling against players dying when they get caught out of position. Rengar can not kill a carry that is positioned well. That is the counterplay, a good group, and a fast peel. rengar is not hard to bring down. one well timed CC and he gets off 1 or 2 Q's which if an adc has any bit of a lead, he will survive just fine. there is your counterplay.

The argument against is like saying twitch with clairvoyance is OP.


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Bethor Kookalian

Member

08-19-2013

So we have a conflict. The ult feels better to Scarizard(at the moment) without stealth, but large portions of the player base want to retain stealth on Rengar.

So here's my idea: His W, W2 or both give short duration stealth akin to Vayne or Kha'Zix. It'd give him a disengage tool mid-fights, while filling the 'defensive' slot the armor/MR currently fills(That Scarizard wanted to find a replacement for).

Maybe its just crazy talk, but I thought it had enough merit to post.


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Arkara73

Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by geezerforhire View Post
his E is vastly better for laning and yes the ad reduction can be useful against a mage just to a lesser extent

Rengar already zones his opponent by being a better duelist and jumping on them from the bushes. if the enemy is on the far side of the wave from side bush to avoid his E he is more vulnerable to ganks. Due to the AD reduction they are unlikely to attempt a duel to prevent bola zoning

against mages he will take DRASTICALLY less damage from minions due to reducing the damage they do to almost nothing. allowing him to all in them much more often(which they hate) basic attacks are also as strong as lvl 1 spells on most mages so the reduction helps deal with them as well.

the lvl scaling on ferocity spreads out the power on his kit. now i can max e for poke while still being able to use the bonus attack speed or scaled up ad reduction on a ferocity Q/W to win duels. as well as being able to max Q for better burst while still being able to waveclear with W when splitpushing/farming. this makes Rengar less 1 dimensional as like with viktor(augment death) people will always max what they discover to work best in most cases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WMQjjK-cso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhkNLHictW8

stop