Skarner, I miss your kind

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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickeput View Post
Every single one of Skarner's abilities scales on AP and a skill which can be up with cdr and attack speed with his passive every time to proc lb with a slow and .4 AP ratio is not a weak skill. His shield has a .6 AP ratio which is a very significant scaling shield, I have been saved from Karthus ults mid-late game with under 100 health because of the shield. His e scales at a .7 AP ratio for damage and is listed as max scaling of .3 AP which means on an enemy with o MR and having no magic pen you would heal for about 43% of the damage done to a single target(talking just about the scaling not the flat amount based on level). And because you can heal off of multiple targets if you have say 3 minions on top of the enemy champion you would heal for that 43%+21.5%+10.75%+5.875% which is 81.125% of the damage dealt to each individual hit by the e(in this case one champion and 3 minions). And after that his ult has a .5/1.0 AP scaling which is very significant, the scaling is .5 however the attack deals damage twice once at the start of the ult and again when the ult breaks at the end for a total scaling of 1.0 AP as long as it isn't broken by say qss or some other form of cleanse.

But you know by all means build Skarner as an AD bruiser with the only AD scaling of any moves being half of his q at .8 which is a good ratio but not worth the loss of functionality of his shield, ranged heal/nuke, and dealing increased damage on every q after the first as well as a lot more damage on every ult. Or you know build him with 0 AP and think that since he has a shield he should be made tanky, yes by all means you can build him tanky however build him with AP seeing as at Max rank with say 400 AP Skarner's shield blocks 250+240 total damage which does benefit from any and all mitigation stats like armor, magic resist, and masteries. Nothing is scarier than a fast AP Skarner who can rip apart your team with his q+e while escaping unharmed with your squishy carry in his ult because of his shield and those marks from e that he procced with his q after grabbing your adc.

Another reason why ghost is a better choice for Skarner over flash, I don't understand why people assume flash is so good for his ult(yes before they removed flashing mid ult it made sense, grab with ult then flash into your turret) when you can rush into the middle of bot lane from the bush ghosted with w up, ult the adc, and drag them into your adc and support on bot at your turret, and if they manage to live when your ult breaks and flashes to safety you still have your ghost up to catch them and they are slowed by your q spams during the ult. *side story rant over*

Anyways the ratio on q makes sense because it is a highly spammable move with a significant perma slow and sheen/lich bane procs every time it goes off cd. The ratio on w is more than enough reason to build AP on Skarner just to get a reliable shield that is big enough to make sure your attack speed and movement speed buff is not lost prematurely. His e scaling is fine it's a heavy hitting linear aoe nuke meaning oh yes it's a skill shot(the reason being because it hits so hard, is aoe, and heals significantly when hitting multiple enemies or even just 1v1 with decent amount of AP) but it hits everything in it's path and can mark or kill(depending on AP) entire groups of double/triple minion waves at a tower because of it's width and then it also, oh yes that's right, is a heal that procs on dealing damage or killing a unit with decent AP ratio. And then his ult that has a total AP ratio of 1.0 where it's base damage is 400 at rank 3 if you had 400 AP his ult alone deals 800 damage(pre mitigation) meanwhile you are suppressing, repositioning, and dealing additional damage and slowing with q. But yes you are definitely right AP on Skarner is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of anyone doing why would you even bother.

After even bothering to read the giant paragraphs that you could have easily split up I bolded the portions I am going to respond to because they are really what I am arguing against and for.

1st Bold: You are assuming that someone has 0 MR and you have 0 MP. Both are highly illogical especially since in the current meta teams have an AP mid/top lane. With magic resist, Skarner just lost out a most of his damage with lich-bane since they changed it's proc damage to magic.

Add that to the fact that his Q while easily spammable has a terrible AP ratio of 85 + .8%(AD) (physical) + 72 + .4% (AP) (magical) at max rank.

His E, is shorter than majority of RADC and APC's normal attack range (600 units). The width is negligible as it can easily be side-stepped even when face to face with Skarner because the animation is blatantly obvious. The heal will be regarding in the next part.

2nd Bold + Italic: People tend to fail to read what Skarner's Heal actually does. Each heal after the first heals half of the previous trigger until Fracture is used again. Max Heal: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+ 60% AP) Bold courtesy of lolwiki. The heal maxes out the most that it can heal off it's primary target. This means if you hit multiple targets regardless of what or who you hit the heal given is massively reduced.

Again this also leads to the gimmick of, why would someone fight AP Skarner in melee range around minions? If you Fracture-Crystal slash a wave it will easily push the wave. This means while you are farming you are being harassed post Fracture cast negating the heal you just received.

Lets not forget about certain items called Morellonomicon and a much used summoner spell called Ignite that will reduce that healing by 50% meaning you are receiving even less of a heal in exchange for more damage on a "melee" mage.

3rd Bold: You say as long as his ult isn't broken by cleanse or QSS. First, cleanse cannot remove Skarner's ultimate. Only QSS/Mercurial Scimitar/Mikael's Crucible/GP Remove Scurvy. Lets not forget again about Banshee's Veil which is a very potent anti-Skarner item for primary targets like RADC and APCS.

Anyways QSS/MercScim/Mikaels are stable items if there are any suppression champions, because of this you don't see Skarner (ap, tank, ad, or bruiser) in any competitive tourney's mainly because he is easy to build against. By breaking his ultimate you drastically reduce it's damage and put it on full cooldown while removing his second strongest utility. ( I say second strongest because imo his perma-slow is the strongest).

4th Bold: Yes I tend to build Skarner more bruiser oriented with AD + resistances and HP. Why? He has one of the highest base AD in the game as well as a 2.1% per level AS. By building HP and resistances you survive longer in a team fight by being able to soak up damage for your team.

As a result unlike AP Skarner (where being the primary mage more than likely) the odds of people focusing you are much less likely and if they do you also have your shield + heal + resistances + more hp than AP Skarner. The only difference is you aren't reliant on the shield to be your one and only protection. Nor are you desperate to hit the heal on as many targets as possible to maximize the return for using your 1 AP-esque ability.

With a 80% AD ratio on his Q, you gain the bonus damage + the slow + harder hits while utilizing your passive to reset your Q (Triforce/IBG take your pick) do just as much for Skarner as Lichbane, only difference is that they give more, and better stats. In short, your AA does more dmg, your Q does more dmg with the higher ratio, your steroid from Crystaline Exoskeleton is utilized properly by adding move-speed and attack-speed to supplement your harder hits + better resistances make the shield drop at the same rate as an AP Skarner. The odds of someone building a QSS/MercScim/Mikaels against a tank Skarner are less likely than an AP Skarner as well, since they will be building to avoid a tank not a nuker.

5th Bold: Wanna know why his AP scaling is good on his E? Go look at other "melee" mages. They have forms of a gap-closer. Fizz has his Playful/Trickster + Urchin Strike + Ultimate (ranged slow + knock up). Kassadin has Rift Walk + Force Pulse (ranged AoE slow). What does Skarner have?

Oh, of course. His shield, something that gives 23% movement speed at max rank. This is also only active WHILE the shield is up. So anyone who can burst or kite Skarner immediately turned the fight into their favor because they will continue to kite you. While you built AP your resistances will be so low (with remove of bulwark) that it won't be very hard for RADC or APC to take it off quickly leaving you a scorpion who is trying to E every 6 seconds (assuming max cdr) while taking damage. Not much of a threat there.

Lets not forget about any CC, or slows because you are not quick traveling or untargetable so you are much more susceptible to any CC whether hard or soft. With max cdr you have to wait 10.8 seconds before you can W again without backing off to AA something else to utilize your passive which gives people time to easily harass and set up to kite you once again.

If you trust AP Skarner so much, go use it in ranked, have fun pwning on bronze and silvers who don't know how to dodge skill shots or build against their lane/enemy team. Then when (or if) you hit gold and beyond you can keep it up and watch as your KDA + win/loss ratio with Skarner plummets you can go back to playing him in his more primarily focus'd role as his kit is designated.

The game isn't balanced around Normals, there are a plethora of counter picks to AP skarner. A plethora of items against AP Skarner and seeing him in a ranked game above gold is a joke that isn't even funny. He has to many weaknesses to balance out his strengths and with the influx of stronger carries + ranged carries and higher burst mages Skarner (especially AP) doesn't fit right now.

But hey, I only played Skarner for over 400 games in season 2 since his release so I guess I don't know what I'm talking about do I?


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nickeput

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Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Red Cap View Post
After even bothering to read the giant paragraphs that you could have easily split up I bolded the portions I am going to respond to because they are really what I am arguing against and for.

1st Bold: You are assuming that someone has 0 MR and you have 0 MP. Both are highly illogical especially since in the current meta teams have an AP mid/top lane. With magic resist, Skarner just lost out a most of his damage with lich-bane since they changed it's proc damage to magic.

Add that to the fact that his Q while easily spammable has a terrible AP ratio of 85 + .8%(AD) (physical) + 72 + .4% (AP) (magical) at max rank.

His E, is shorter than majority of RADC and APC's normal attack range (600 units). The width is negligible as it can easily be side-stepped even when face to face with Skarner because the animation is blatantly obvious. The heal will be regarding in the next part.

2nd Bold + Italic: People tend to fail to read what Skarner's Heal actually does. Each heal after the first heals half of the previous trigger until Fracture is used again. Max Heal: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+ 60% AP) Bold courtesy of lolwiki. The heal maxes out the most that it can heal off it's primary target. This means if you hit multiple targets regardless of what or who you hit the heal given is massively reduced.

Again this also leads to the gimmick of, why would someone fight AP Skarner in melee range around minions? If you Fracture-Crystal slash a wave it will easily push the wave. This means while you are farming you are being harassed post Fracture cast negating the heal you just received.

Lets not forget about certain items called Morellonomicon and a much used summoner spell called Ignite that will reduce that healing by 50% meaning you are receiving even less of a heal in exchange for more damage on a "melee" mage.

3rd Bold: You say as long as his ult isn't broken by cleanse or QSS. First, cleanse cannot remove Skarner's ultimate. Only QSS/Mercurial Scimitar/Mikael's Crucible/GP Remove Scurvy. Lets not forget again about Banshee's Veil which is a very potent anti-Skarner item for primary targets like RADC and APCS.

Anyways QSS/MercScim/Mikaels are stable items if there are any suppression champions, because of this you don't see Skarner (ap, tank, ad, or bruiser) in any competitive tourney's mainly because he is easy to build against. By breaking his ultimate you drastically reduce it's damage and put it on full cooldown while removing his second strongest utility. ( I say second strongest because imo his perma-slow is the strongest).

4th Bold: Yes I tend to build Skarner more bruiser oriented with AD + resistances and HP. Why? He has one of the highest base AD in the game as well as a 2.1% per level AS. By building HP and resistances you survive longer in a team fight by being able to soak up damage for your team.

As a result unlike AP Skarner (where being the primary mage more than likely) the odds of people focusing you are much less likely and if they do you also have your shield + heal + resistances + more hp than AP Skarner. The only difference is you aren't reliant on the shield to be your one and only protection. Nor are you desperate to hit the heal on as many targets as possible to maximize the return for using your 1 AP-esque ability.

With a 80% AD ratio on his Q, you gain the bonus damage + the slow + harder hits while utilizing your passive to reset your Q (Triforce/IBG take your pick) do just as much for Skarner as Lichbane, only difference is that they give more, and better stats. In short, your AA does more dmg, your Q does more dmg with the higher ratio, your steroid from Crystaline Exoskeleton is utilized properly by adding move-speed and attack-speed to supplement your harder hits + better resistances make the shield drop at the same rate as an AP Skarner. The odds of someone building a QSS/MercScim/Mikaels against a tank Skarner are less likely than an AP Skarner as well, since they will be building to avoid a tank not a nuker.

5th Bold: Wanna know why his AP scaling is good on his E? Go look at other "melee" mages. They have forms of a gap-closer. Fizz has his Playful/Trickster + Urchin Strike + Ultimate (ranged slow + knock up). Kassadin has Rift Walk + Force Pulse (ranged AoE slow). What does Skarner have?

Oh, of course. His shield, something that gives 23% movement speed at max rank. This is also only active WHILE the shield is up. So anyone who can burst or kite Skarner immediately turned the fight into their favor because they will continue to kite you. While you built AP your resistances will be so low (with remove of bulwark) that it won't be very hard for RADC or APC to take it off quickly leaving you a scorpion who is trying to E every 6 seconds (assuming max cdr) while taking damage. Not much of a threat there.

Lets not forget about any CC, or slows because you are not quick traveling or untargetable so you are much more susceptible to any CC whether hard or soft. With max cdr you have to wait 10.8 seconds before you can W again without backing off to AA something else to utilize your passive which gives people time to easily harass and set up to kite you once again.

If you trust AP Skarner so much, go use it in ranked, have fun pwning on bronze and silvers who don't know how to dodge skill shots or build against their lane/enemy team. Then when (or if) you hit gold and beyond you can keep it up and watch as your KDA + win/loss ratio with Skarner plummets you can go back to playing him in his more primarily focus'd role as his kit is designated.

The game isn't balanced around Normals, there are a plethora of counter picks to AP skarner. A plethora of items against AP Skarner and seeing him in a ranked game above gold is a joke that isn't even funny. He has to many weaknesses to balance out his strengths and with the influx of stronger carries + ranged carries and higher burst mages Skarner (especially AP) doesn't fit right now.

But hey, I only played Skarner for over 400 games in season 2 since his release so I guess I don't know what I'm talking about do I?
I will apologize for the large paragraphs I was trying to split them up based on each point I was making. I am however not great at typing out things outside of scientific writings so sorry for my lack of effectiveness in stating my points.

You misquoted me on multiple things. One the 0 MR and 0 MP is for easy argument sake as there is no math needed to determine how much damage is actually being dealt for a simple comparison of the nuke vs the heal.

Two when I said a cleanse I didn't mean the summoner cleanse; I meant things like qss and items built out of it and gangplanks oranges but since you didn't understand that I guess I can't be bothered to reiterate it if you don't understand it the second time.

Third I have never built full AP Skarner since the first week of trying him out; my build with Skarner when I was using him in season 2 ranked and normals was a hybrid of max cdr, heavy movement speed(utilizing fon speed boost when there was heavy AP on the other team which no longer exists sadly) with ms quints and ghost, attack speed to increase cd of skills and make the lb procs faster as well as assisting in his early jungle, and then last but not least AP. I didn't build Skarner as an AP nuker I used his AP to survive with his heal and shield as well as to deal a lot of sustained damage with his q.

You claimed that an AD and health Skarner has better survivability because you also have your shield and heal like AP Skarner's do however your shield and heal are vastly weaker and a lb proc will deal more damage than a tri force/IBG would which only deals extra damage based on his base damage, as you yourself noted, which is easily outdone with a mediocre amount of AP from hybrid items and other items which provide other stats besides AP which Skarner can utilize.

Skarner is never the primary mage as you put it. The way I have always built Skarner had his damage almost evenly split between physical and magic damage leading him to be enough of a threat to not be ignored regardless of how the enemy team builds defensively.

Also you claimed the q scales so horribly as AP vs AD but have you looked at the items in this game it is a lot easier to build high amounts of AP than AD although pricey the ability to go over 1000 AP can't be matched with AD. Six bloodthirsters with full stacks is only 600 bonus AD. Neither of these being things anyone should attempt to max out on Skarner but therein lies the simplest reason as to why a skill like this would scale harder on AD than on AP.

You are right however on his base AD being one of the highest in the game seeing as if I remember correctly he is tied with Cho'Gath as having the highest base AD but how often do you see a chogath running around with tri force as opposed to a lich bane given the choice?

When I listed Skarner's heal did I not clearly put down that each mark would be healing for half as much with the %'s I listed being halved each time? I admittedly should have probably stated this more obviously as to why I was listing them as such but I assumed the people reading this thread would be aware with how his heal functioned with the reduced heal per mark till his e is recast. Also you actually pulled the wrong number from the wiki on his heal it scales .3 you have to go to the ability tab to see which of the two numbers is the actual scaling.

You mentioned Kassadin who has a flash ult because he is a melee mage however Kassadin and Skarner are vastly different, Skarner is innately tankier than Kassadin and then Kassadin is an assassin meant to get in melt someone and then get out and as such deals more damage and has more mobility.

You also said that AD Skarner doesn't rely on hitting his e on as many targets as possible to maximize the heal however what kind of summoner doesn't attempt to maximize any skill in their arsenal be it a heal, cc, or damage ability? With Skarner's e being both a heal and a damage ability it makes even more sense that landing it on as many targets as possible while in the middle of a frantic fight and making the most out of it or choosing to launch it in a manner that would net a kill but miss out on the other damage and heals available would define who is the better Skarner player. Would it not?

Anyways if you want to go in and tear apart what I was saying which was in response to someone else's points(your own post in this case) please attempt to actual read it with an open mind and try to actually comprehend what I was saying and not immediately think that anyone mentioning AP on Skarner is a noob and has no experience with Skarner. Because I'm sorry but I also had hundreds of games with Skarner in season 2 and tried the AD tanky bruiser builds trying out different items and build orders as I saw fit in an attempt to find where he fit best before I found the hybrid set up that was most successful in ranked play as well as overall play in normals for fun. And I mained Skarner in the jungle and would play him top at times for fun or if the enemy top was lacking in poke so I could sit in lane till 6 then help the jungler with ganks.


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GoliothOnline

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Here's my take on what Skarner is and where he SHOULD be.. Having played him as my sole jungler for over a year.



• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

He had reliability.. HAD.. He doesn't anymore, you could ult someone flashing and then burn that said flash, punishing them for being too close to you. If you want to EZ-Kite with Gauntlet and you get caught in melee range, don't ***** to Skarner that your flash was supposed to keep you away from him. You got caught, deal. Now he is just a sub-par tank that cannot tank... His E is useless as the heal is negligible, serves no dmg purpose late game and is simply a hindrance upon his kit to rely on constantly casting.


• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

I used to be able to zip in and grab someone, then pull them out into my team mates... Now the problem with this is obviously that I have to GET TO YOU first... I don't understand why so many people hate on poor skarner in this sense... If I run up to your face and ult you, you DESERVE to die... You don't get free "Oh she-" moments and free escapes, which sadly, more and more champions these days are coming out with... Free res' free blinks, free gap closers/escapes... Skarner is effectively out of date and a sub par Vi with half the utility and effectiveness.


• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

There are frustrating aspects of playing against skarner?... Lately I see him as a free jungle kill... So I don't know what brought this up lol He's weak, squishy and so item dependent that he feels like a wire frame from SSB:Melee...


• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

As I said earlier, Vi is a good example. She has the dmg output skarner used to have, she has the gap closer that is better than your shield & speed boost, she has a lock down mechanism that deals an absurd amount of dmg, while being completely unstoppable and guaranteeing the target you select gets shat on...


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
-Remove attack speed from the W buff
Noooooo keep that plz.


I was thinking the following. When Skarner Ws he gains the AS buff for the full duration whether the shield holds on not. Instead, while the shield in active, he gains a HUGE amount of Tenacity.


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Mimiron

Junior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMangoBear View Post
I made a NA account and got it up to level 5 just to post here so here goes:

When I first started playing I played for one reason only... To get enough ip for Skarner. A few weeks down the line I finally had enough! I bought him and he has been my main ever since.

I have been watching this thread very closely for the past few weeks and I agree with what a lot of people are saying. I really really appreciate that you are giving Skarner the love and attention he needs. But, however, I do not agree with all the changes you plan on making.

There are many things that have been said that I'd say but I can't be bothered to type it all out and I'm sure you can't be bothered to read it all over again.

Q+W: I always loved his Q for its short cooldown and amazing slow. His W gave a nice speed boost and a mediocre shield, perfect for blocking that turret shot that could have killed you. I feel that Skarner is very unique and that his abilities really define him. I really cannot stress how disappointed many -including myself- will be if you remove the slow from his Q. You say it lacks counterplay but it has plenty already! Skarner has really low range and he has to use his Q twice before he even gets the slow activated! Most adc's have some form of cc that can slow you so they can get away before you can even slow them.

In pre-6 ganks I use my W to catch up and use Q to deal damage and slow but by the time I reach my enemy and manage to slow them they are within their turrets' range. If not that then they just break my shield before I get to them and leap out of range. I leave 90% of pre-6 ganks a very sad scorpion...

In post-6 ganks his lack of a gap closer makes it so that by the time you catch up to the enemy from the little speed boost from your W, grab him and pull him back with your ult, the enemy is back where most other junglers would have reached him ages ago at the start of the gank!


E: Current E sucks for many reasons: he can't move while casting, low range, low heal and uses too much mana.

R: Love it, really like the fact that you made it more reliable.


Reply to new changes: having the slow on his new E means you lose what Skarner is all about, sticking to your enemy like a disease, slowing them and slowly killing them. Sure, the attack speed boost on his Q sounds nice, but the slow is faaar better. Perhaps lower the mana cost on it so you don't struggle so much without blue.
I like the changes to the W, putting the cooldown back down is great and making the shield bigger will help a lot. Also having a bigger movespeed boost will REALLY help him with ganking and getting around the map.
The E... Well, I don't know what my opinion is on that yet but I really don't like it having the slow. Sure, remove the heal in exchange for the bigger shield, I use that more. I don't know what you'll do with the E but I hope it's pretty different from how you have it now, I don't think Skarner needs a ranged ability as long as he has his movespeed-boosing W and permaslow on his Q. I hope you come up with something fun and original.
As regards his R, I like what you have done.


All in all I like the changes except the removal of his Q's slow and his E changes. Just please, please don't change what made him Skarner...

He can't do much from a long range but boy. Oh. Boy... Run, run in fear. Because if he catches you he won't let you go. Oh, you think you can get to the safety of your turret? No, because he'll drag you back no matter who you are and crush you like an insect.
I've been following this thread closely for weeks. Skarner is my favorite jungler and I love how he feels even though he's underpowered. I only play him in normals to have fun.s

But I honestly can not figure out why it matters that his Q is the slow instead of a ranged E to help him be a more viable champion?

Other people talking about wanting a refund if these changes go through. It's like you don't care if he's viable or not, just that he's the same as when he was released. These are such minor changes. The mechanics are moved around between his abilities and we're trading a useless heal for an incredible AS steroid. It's like you're not even thinking about the changes, you're just territorial about a champion that's not even created by you.

Can someone explain this to me? I don't understand why adding an attack speed buff to Q and making his E actually worth something makes him so much less fun that we have to whine in the forums about it.

Riot is not going to put work into a champ to break them. Q is going to feel fun still and just buy an IBG and with the Q-AA-AA-Q-AA-AA-Q pattern, you'll still have a constant slow, with such a short CD. You'll still have ridiculous sticking power between an E with a reduced CD per AA as well as IBG.

I like the changes and I wish he was out before October. Looking forward to the release.


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Taliesin

Senior Member

08-18-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Flash ulting a cocky carry. Also, his /l.
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
The fact that his ult was neutered while Voli/Singed's flips were left untouched. Also the fact that he only has 3 skills.
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
I can't answer this. Maybe if I'd played against a Skarner at all in S3?
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Yeah. Jarvan comes to mind. Lee Sin. Zac. Nautilus. Maokai. These guys all have a better chance of catching a carry than Skarner does now, and they all have way better pre-6 ganks to boot.


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Muranodo

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Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimiron View Post
I've been following this thread closely for weeks. Skarner is my favorite jungler and I love how he feels even though he's underpowered. I only play him in normals to have fun.s

But I honestly can not figure out why it matters that his Q is the slow instead of a ranged E to help him be a more viable champion?

Other people talking about wanting a refund if these changes go through. It's like you don't care if he's viable or not, just that he's the same as when he was released. These are such minor changes. The mechanics are moved around between his abilities and we're trading a useless heal for an incredible AS steroid. It's like you're not even thinking about the changes, you're just territorial about a champion that's not even created by you.

Can someone explain this to me? I don't understand why adding an attack speed buff to Q and making his E actually worth something makes him so much less fun that we have to whine in the forums about it.

Riot is not going to put work into a champ to break them. Q is going to feel fun still and just buy an IBG and with the Q-AA-AA-Q-AA-AA-Q pattern, you'll still have a constant slow, with such a short CD. You'll still have ridiculous sticking power between an E with a reduced CD per AA as well as IBG.

I like the changes and I wish he was out before October. Looking forward to the release.
Well, let's note a few of your thoughts:

To retain your constant slow: Buy an IBG. You didn't have to buy the item before. Now you're going to be reliant on it for a melee AoE perma-slow. If IBG gets nerfed for any reason again, you're going to end up nerfing Skarner which is a further concern considering what he's eaten already. It's pushed Frozen Mallet and Phage out already for most of the season. So wouldn't surprise me if the changes to them on the PBE aren't deemed enough to make them appealing to buy and IBG eats another nerf---and thereby Skarner too.

Well, the counter-argument is IBG isn't required. Okay. But then you get into the other change.

To otherwise slow, you now have to make a choice on not leveling up your shield or sacrificing an increased slow % as the game goes on. This is introducing more and more counter-play for a champion that got nerfed very heavily by removing his special sauce in the form of his bug fix for his ultimate. You can see a parallel between this and the Rengar rework. Remove a presently known core concept of his identity again. He's no longer "You cannot escape me as I drag you into the team; I still have a permaslow." Now he's "I don't have a perma slow in my kit; I can maybe get a few more clutch uses of his ult because it felt a bit wonky." Now let me not do anything really interesting with his E; we'll move some parts of his kit and hope it's more of a net buff than a nerf as we reallocate his power for balancing reasons.

Also, his E slow kind of reminds me of some of the logic for nerfing Olaf's Q. It now travels farther; it's a thinner projectile. I just get the same feeling there; it wasn't a good feeling really in the end. Add in the fact you'll be ganking early with this---and it's more... eh.

Add on to that it's going to put more demand on using his entire kit to achieve a similar effect as before; we know it's going to be mana intensive. Even if you reduce it. So are we going back to where Skarner is really, really, going to need the first two or so blue buffs to get ahead?

Also, it's not really giving his E skill a unique identity. It's swapping around some statistics of the kit while not even adding anything to further his theme. It seems like a sloppy job; it's overall not greatly appealing to the fans of present Skarner.

Off-kits are also popular too, so you're isolating the AP Skarner folks.

Add in the fact that feedback here doesn't really address lots of the concerned comments or address trying anything (and mentioning it) of potential skill changes for his E (burrowing---Wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Skarner fans like Sand King in DOTA/DOTA 2) like was often done in the Yorick/Xerath threads; you'll find people are clammering for the same kind of attention. Because presently it doesn't seem like it's doing much for his long term health.

A slightly better early game to lose his permaslow without investing in IBG which may not be financially feasible depending on what kind of better utility jungler he's against that may be snowballing against your team far faster due to the power of their base kit tends to put people off.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-18-2013

I think the question we all want to have answered right now is this: What exactly is the motivation behind removing the permaslow? Why is this mechanic clearly a target of the rework? What are the reasons why you don't want it on Skarner's kit, even though his fans do? Is it a balance reason? Is it a thematic reason? Is this necessary in order to give him more power, and if so, why? Is there anyone pressing to have permaslow removed from the kit?

What exactly is going on with this?

Aside from that, I have to reiterate some complaints we've all stated earlier. Having Skarner's Q, W, and E all provide sources of utility that Skarner will level up will leave him with less total utility in the midgame, which is Skarner's strongest point. Current Skarner can be maxed on utility by level 12-13 with Q and W, after which he can utilize that utility while scaling purely on terms of damage and tankiness from E. Changing it so that Skarner won't reach his maximum utility until level 18 weakens the most significant period of his game relative to the weaker periods, and I'm not convinced that the greater total power Skarner will possess will make up for this.

Additionally, it should be noted that you have removed a form of scaling from Skarner's kit. You have removed the heal, and therefore have also removed the AP scaling that went along with it. Will this be addressed in Skarner's other ratios? I ask because if you were just to buff the ratio of the shield, it would lead to a very high-health and hard to break shield (something I think you're unlikely to do because it would make removing his movement speed harder). Is there anywhere else you will be adding that scaling back onto his kit?

Finally, while you are reducing Skarner's mana costs, you are also redesigning him so that he will have to use all three of his basic skills. With that requirement upon him, will Skarner's mana costs still be as hefty as in the past?

If the kit ended up being like the one that is currently proposed, I wouldn't be unhappy, but I do think there are ways to improve it (and for the record, burrow is not one of those ways. Please don't do that).


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IXBlackStarXI

Senior Member

08-18-2013

i'm sorry, but if we remove skarner'S perma slow, his ganks will sucks even if he still got his ult...


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BiggieJohn

Senior Member

08-18-2013

His E is useless.

He is a scorpion right? Where is the stinger poison?

E should be a toggle where he periodically jabs a nearby enemy applying a poison stack. (prioritizes closest nearby champions)

Toggles like cho's. Stacks to 5 and ticks like darius's bleed. Maybe make skarner's ult last .1 second longer per stack.

no stacks he grabs for 1.5 sec. fully stacked on the taret pulls for 2 sec?