A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Muggshott

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talohmiir View Post
What if rather than using full stealth where you are invisible to the enemy team, do a cloaking-type thingy. Everone loves the stealth aspect, but the warning/counterplay sucks for it. Why not just make him partially transparent, like a ghost. That way he could still be seen, but in the crazy team fights he could also be overlooked until it was too late. I understand he is based off several things, but with the Predator similarities, it would also work great. Think about it. You are in mid and the enemy Rengar hasn't harrassed you and is over do. You scroll up to the topside of a warded river. You don't see him, at first, but then you see an awkward blur of motion and realize Rengar ulted and his heading your way fast. That fear would be fun for both the Rengar player and his target. It would still give the hardcore Rengar fans like myself that stealth feel, but with a certain amount of counterplay since he's not completely invisible, but rather just a odd blur like looking at something threw a drop of water. This would be awesome and if you guys could, you should shoot for having a go at it in testing. Just to let us know what you think.
Seems like this just throws it back to the "better at the shallower end of the elo pool" arena. Stealth does that intrinsically, but this more feeds into that psychology of overlooking what you're not trying to find rather than simply failing to expect the approach at any angle.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardinger View Post
The fact that Scarizard chooses to reply to the minority that are okay with the removal of Rengar's stealth is pretty infuriating, in my opinion.

I'm so sick of every aspect of this thread, I just wish it was closed and forgotten about.
This is me responding to you. My last two posts have detailed how i understand the frustration and anger about Rengar's loss of identity tied to the loss of stealth. In both of these posts, i mention that i am working to implement a version of the ultimate that retains stealth, but works together with the current implementation to give players choice of fast and ruthless, or slow and steady.

You're entitled to be mad, and as long as you're being constructive i 100% welcome it.


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Talohmiir

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyu View Post
what if when you use Rengar's ult with any levels in ferocity you gain X/2 (that is half x) seconds of stealth? Where X is the levels of Ferocity consumed by Rengar's ult?

This would mean that you could still have some stealth with Rengar but it would be conditional, requires an additional cost (in ferocity), and be quite limited duration (so that Rengar couldn't go in assassinate and get a free out with his ult).

I think it would allow Rengar to further exploit moments of opportunity, retain his pridestalker theme, while still allowing for reasonable counter-play (since at most it would only be 2.5 seconds of stealth which shouldn't be enough for Rengar to engage and get out again safely - and you should be able to judge how much stealth Rengar should have by the levels of Ferocity he has).

What do people think?
Not a bad idea IMO.


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Talohmiir

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Seeing Scar on here while I'm posting, still hopeing to get even a "Meh" from him on my ult idea, lol.


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Sjafi

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
This is me responding to you. My last two posts have detailed how i understand the frustration and anger about Rengar's loss of identity tied to the loss of stealth. In both of these posts, i mention that i am working to implement a version of the ultimate that retains stealth, but works together with the current implementation to give players choice of fast and ruthless, or slow and steady.

You're entitled to be mad, and as long as you're being constructive i 100% welcome it.
You are awesome, man. I admire your dedication to this game and company!


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talohmiir View Post
Seeing Scar on here while I'm posting, still hopeing to get even a "Meh" from him on my ult idea, lol.
Even better, i'll use actual words instead of "Meh"

One of the big reasons i think it's unlikely for us to make him (or anyone, really) half-transparent just so that it makes it hard for players to see Rengar is that we value readability pretty heavily in our game, especially with respect to particles/animations in teamfights.

It's one kind of frustrating to get stunlocked, instagibbed, or jumped on by stealth - those are situations where you felt options were removed from you and you weren't able to react. It would be much worse however, if you were to die to someone simply because the game developers decided to make it hard for you to see what's killing you. (God forbid you have low settings like some of our players! D: )

When we do things like deny information, we tend to be forceful about it - Nocturne removes vision from everyone definitively, and then gives it back. Graves removes vision within a zone. While i agree that it's an interesting idea/possible to give Rengar a 'pseudo-stealth' like invis on minimap but not invis in game, i feel like it breaks enough of our rules for vision in our game that the gains would be very low. I'd like to go bigger than say to Rengar players 'You have to really hope the opponent isn't looking at their screen!!'

Bonus: To a lot of the people saying to add some Evelynn type stealth ring - it's not a terrible idea or one we haven't though of before, but two issues came to mind that made us reconsider.

A. Evelynn's stealth is kind of -Evelynn's- stealth, and specifically the reason that in the 'Stealth Rework' she received it while twitch had his streamlined into a reliable steroid. Putting something like this on Rengar runs the risk of really crashing into her play

B. It's not even clear it would really work. Eve's stealth is cool because it's permanent - you're constantly Solid Snaking it around the map, sometimes even in lane but dancing just outside their vision. Rengar not only would have this on a low/medium duration, but the Leap Range of his passive would mean that the range at which you'd have to see Rengar would get pretty massive, or the actual 'range' wouldn't be at all a deterrent to him leaping on you - because the moment you'd see he's out of stealth, he'd already be in range to jump on your face.


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DreamsOfGrandeur

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Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
(To those of you who actually like the No Stealth changes - this isn't about me buckling under pressure - if the 'No Stealth In Any Form Whatsoever' Ult is best for our game, i'll do it in a heartbeat. I just want to do some more exploration/prototyping on some ideas that may reincorporate Stealth for those fans who feel it makes/breaks his uniqueness.)

Thanks for continuing to post - you're all very passionate about the changes, and i am never someone to turn down feedback, even for those of you who don't care for me or where i've taken it so far. I'm listening. I hope the next time i have an update it will be something that most of you can agree with!
Good, I like the idea of him giving up the Stealth.

People aren't against it because he's worse without it, they just like how it feels like a cheat that lets you bypass wards / enemy eyes.
But Rengar is a hunter. He's not suppose to be an Assassin. Pure speed is really what would work, imo.

If stealth is to be readded, I believe you should do Evelynn's type of stealth, where they would still get revealed at a certain distance, but since Rengar can leap, this becomes moot.

Maybe remove the leap in favor of Evelynn-style stealth? That might be worth exploring.

EDIT:
The true concern, indeed, would be Rengar treading on Evelynn's unique style. I can easily imagine Rengar and Evelynn feeling too similar if Rengar's ult gets that type of stealth.


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Arkara73

Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by scarizard View Post
likely that this will get buried along with my previous post this morning - there's an issue with dev tracker showing my post as a 'next riot' one to navigate to, but -

i have an idea that i think can really capture the best of both worlds, as well as make rengar players feel their ultimate is unique. While i can confirm this iteration of the ult has tested well in terms of functionality for the champion, i totally get the whole argument that his identity would be changed and that has a lot of value for players.

I'm going to head in to the office tomorrow and see if i can't get it hooked up before the playtest on monday, and also pick the brains of other designers to see if i'm not walking into some obvious missteps - just skyped wav3break about it and he's super pumped about it as well.

As soon as i have it hooked up and functional i'll post a tooltip here for y'all to see and get your feelings. Have to say though, i think this could be really cool.

YES! You da best bro!


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Talohmiir

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Even better, i'll use actual words instead of "Meh"

One of the big reasons i think it's unlikely for us to make him (or anyone, really) half-transparent just so that it makes it hard for players to see Rengar is that we value readability pretty heavily in our game, especially with respect to particles/animations in teamfights.

It's one kind of frustrating to get stunlocked, instagibbed, or jumped on by stealth - those are situations where you felt options were removed from you and you weren't able to react. It would be much worse however, if you were to die to someone simply because the game developers decided to make it hard for you to see what's killing you. (God forbid you have low settings like some of our players! D: )

When we do things like deny information, we tend to be forceful about it - Nocturne removes vision from everyone definitively, and then gives it back. Graves removes vision within a zone. While i agree that it's an interesting idea/possible to give Rengar a 'pseudo-stealth' like invis on minimap but not invis in game, i feel like it breaks enough of our rules for vision in our game that the gains would be very low. I'd like to go bigger than say to Rengar players 'You have to really hope the opponent isn't looking at their screen!!'

Bonus: To a lot of the people saying to add some Evelynn type stealth ring - it's not a terrible idea or one we haven't though of before, but two issues came to mind that made us reconsider.

A. Evelynn's stealth is kind of -Evelynn's- stealth, and specifically the reason that in the 'Stealth Rework' she received it while twitch had his streamlined into a reliable steroid. Putting something like this on Rengar runs the risk of really crashing into her play

B. It's not even clear it would really work. Eve's stealth is cool because it's permanent - you're constantly Solid Snaking it around the map, sometimes even in lane but dancing just outside their vision. Rengar not only would have this on a low/medium duration, but the Leap Range of his passive would mean that the range at which you'd have to see Rengar would get pretty massive, or the actual 'range' wouldn't be at all a deterrent to him leaping on you - because the moment you'd see he's out of stealth, he'd already be in range to jump on your face.
Thanks man. Good point, I never though of those that have to run on low settings. And I get your point, but it would be fun. I feel like some on here, that his new ult sounds great, and I'll continue to Main Rengar even if he loses stealth, but like most on here, I also think that it feels like a part of Rengar, so rather than ripping on you guys for taking it out (for this iteration at least) I'm just trying to be a constructive critic rather than a trolling one. Thanks for replying man. It's pretty cool to actually talk to the people that are behind the game, not many companies are this responsive and involved with their fans. Means alot to all of us.


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Mysnomer

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Senior Member

08-18-2013

Well I'm so glad Riot's mission statement is about perfect balance at the cost of identity. It's good that they don't blast a lot of hot air about "capturing a fantasy" or else this would smack of hypocrisy. But that's fine, y'know, I didn't play a lot of Rengar anyway, I just picked him up because his concept was frickin' rad and he was fun to play occasionally. It's good that I won't even have to think about choosing him after this change, just another burden off my chest. Thanks, Riot, and especially Scarizard....

:| .......

I can't keep this shenanigan going.

Screw you Scar, crapping all over one of Guinsoo's coolest designs, and now this? Just because you guys can't grow a pair and properly balance stealth, you'd rather ruin a character and hide behind your fellow Rioters. Stealth is fairly unique mechanic, so you do something cool and pair it with unobstructed vision; but then stealth is "toxic," so you nerf durations and add delays; then stealth is unsatisfying, and it's "holding you back" because you have to balance around it; then stealth eventually gets removed or becomes perfunctory. The problem is not stealth. The problem. Is. You.