A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-17-2013

Quick post because i woke up way too early, read the last 10 or so pages since i passed out 4~ hours ago, going to pass out again but -

- 28 AD/lvl is not final and i've said across many posts i'm looking to increase this. Damage numbers were kept low to see 'How worth it is this item for these types of bonuses without a heap of AD forcing you to get it?' I have less issue with this getting more AD - this is generally why i don't post numbers because they're constantly in flux. Seeing so many people saying 'I like it/could like it but the AD is so low it seems useless' is why numbers are a tuning point.

- I don't want to seem stubborn when i say that i'm going to continue to test this no-stealth version (Testing is testing, and i'm going to see how it goes) but you guys are pretty loud and clear about needing stealth in some form for this to be anywhere near what you want. I've seen enough posts/feedback that 'Like the changes, concerned/worried about loss of stealth' that i think there are some solutions to have it be back on the kit.

Previous iteration to this (Full stealth + Warning) had issues. Current iteration (Much longer duration, Much higher MS, Much shorter CD + No Stealth) seems to be hitting the gameplay that we want but loses the Stealth that you guys really want. I think there's a way to introduce Stealth back in - i have a cool idea that might be really dumb but it's too early in the morning to know. Gonna go back to crashing, but i'll be back when i'm up to talk more.

(To those of you who actually like the No Stealth changes - this isn't about me buckling under pressure - if the 'No Stealth In Any Form Whatsoever' Ult is best for our game, i'll do it in a heartbeat. I just want to do some more exploration/prototyping on some ideas that may reincorporate Stealth for those fans who feel it makes/breaks his uniqueness.)

Thanks for continuing to post - you're all very passionate about the changes, and i am never someone to turn down feedback, even for those of you who don't care for me or where i've taken it so far. I'm listening. I hope the next time i have an update it will be something that most of you can agree with!


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zackypooh

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Can there be a buff to the lvl 1 abilities, so he can jungle a bit better his lvl 1 and 2 is kinda scary, his final lvls be the same power but lvl 1 buff so he can clear a bit better?


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Flintfall

Senior Member

08-17-2013

From what I can see, Rengar's gameplay is going to be a lot more different.

1) Laning It got a massive nerf, no strong straight up damage for trades, and now that bola strike is a skillshot, harassing is out of the question now.

2) Teamfights Rengar is now almost useless in teamfights, no really strong upfront burst to kill the carry, and no stealth, he's a sitting duck, not to mention his battle roar will make him blow up faster.

So, the fun parts of Rengar are getting nerfed. I always loved ganking with his r and being invis, as well as surprise bursting my poor enemy laner


3) Dueling Kinda iffy, his Q chain will allow for continual sustained damage and the ultility changes (ack, my armor pen QQ) will help him chase the target down, the E changes to his bola strike don't help though. His battle roar helps with dealing against burst (Provided he can get into melee range) Overall, if he can stick to the target, his damage got a buff, but since him being in melee range the entire time is unrealistic in most cases, he got a little weaker

4) Backdooring Oooh boy, hehehe. With his ult changes, he can basically apply global pressure. If the other team is getting dragon, he can clear 2 towers at top, the Qs will wreck towers and he'll be able to escape fairly easily with his ult

So, all in all, he's gonna get nerfed and the playstyle that makes Rengar, Rengar, is going to go, and I don't like it. But that doesn't mean he'll be useless, just not nearly as fun. (Unless wrecking towers with no interaction is fun)

tl;dr got weaker/nerfed and will pretty much be a boring backdoor champ. Not gonna be fun anymore


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X1zz3l

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
-Snip-
Thanks for trying to bring back stealth in some way, I hope you see how Rengar isn't a real predator anymore without it


I'd like to give some random opinions and suggestions for various stuff, maybe there's something you can use :P


Let's start with listing his problems that need to be fixed:

-Awful base HP/5 which hurts him badly early
-Designed as a jungler, pretty bad at his job
-Stealthjump without any notice (Together with: See below)
-Oneshotting people (Together with: See above)
-No skill costs need to result in drawbacks elsewhere
-Crazy trading and harassing potential without cons

Conclusion:
Rengar needs a huge shift in his skills usage but the purpose should stay the same and / or fit his kit.


Passive - Unseen Predator

I think the change that Rengar will now be visible at the beginning of a jump rather than midair will hurt him but I'm all in for this change. It's rather unfair how you lose time to prepare yourself to counteract his attacks. HOWEVER you have to keep in mind that this also means that stronger overall attacks are most likely necessary to balance out this change. Other than that, you should keep it where it is.

Conclusion: Good change - Needs compensation


Q - Savagery

The proposed changes are great and I'd like to see them implented. Shifting some burst damage over for dueling and fast combo stabbing sounds great, you have to be careful that he doesn't get too weak without his Fero Q though.

I remember that you mentioned something like a stacking damage and this sounds great in my opinion. Debuff a champion (only) if it gets hit with Fero Q and let this stack up to two so the damage overall will be the same, just not instantly but over a small period of time.

Some thing you could also consider would be making the %AS bonus nearly permanentely if you decide to use your Ferocity Q. What this means is that the overall AS is lower but it also gets procced by your Ferocity Q.

Example: (Numbers tentative)

8/7,5/7/6,5/6 cooldown

Normal Q:
30/55/80/105/130(+100% AD)
+
20/25/30/35/40% AS

Ferocity Q:
30/55/80/105/130(+120% AD) First cast on a target
30/55/80/105/130(+130% AD) Second cast on a target
30/55/80/105/130(+140% AD) Third (and following) cast(s) on a target
+
20/25/30/35/40% AS


Target dummy damage example: (100 AD Rengar; 0 Armor dummy)

Old Q - Fero Q = 600 dmg
New Q - Fero Q = 480 dmg

Old Q - Fero Q - Fero Q = 950 dmg (Tripple with ult)
New Q - Fero Q - Fero Q = 740 dmg (<- normal combo,^ Gets removed + E,W dmg not counted, only Fero stacks for the combo)

This would give Rengar a better all-in-burst with the proper preperation but still lowers the overall burst by a lot when you compare it to tripple Q. Dueling power is pretty high however, since you get more damage when you keep on hitting your target.

Other number thoughts:

Normal Q:
10/25/40/55/70 (+100/105/110/115/120% AD)
+
30/35/40/45/50% AS

Ferocity Q:
10/25/40/55/70 (+130/135/140/145/150% AD) First cast on a target
10/25/40/55/70 (+137.5/142.5/147.5/152.5/157.5% AD) Second cast on a target
10/25/40/55/70 (+145/150/155/160/165% AD)
+
30/35/40/45/50% AS


W - Battle Roar

This skill is one of Rengars biggest problems but I seriously would like it to be some "high cooldown, temporary boost". Armor and mr is rather bad, since you get extreme amounts of trading power in lane and I don't want the enemy to be forced to backoff since you would win the fight no matter what. Damage reduction, your idea, seems rather lackluster to me too. A thought I had was like giving it a small amount of flat damage reduction and tenacity, depending on the amount of champions you hit.
Additionally, the damage should be increased and, maybe, you could add a small fear effect on creeps and monsters if those stats don't fullfill Rengar's tankyness problems.

Example: (Numbers tentative)

19/17/15/13/11 cooldown

60/100/140/180/220 (+ AP)
+
6/12/18/24/30 Flat reduction against magical and physical damage
+
10% tenacity

(Increased by 5 points of reduction and 5% tenacity if 2 and counting champions are hit up to a maximum of 50 flat reduction against magical and physical damage + 30% tenacity)

Buff duration: 3/3.5/4/4.5/5 seconds

Empowered Battle Roar's heal is good and the damage part should really be changed to a lvl increasing damage so doublecasting can't be abused anymore.


E - Bola Strike

I already said that I don't really like the skillshot idea but if you really give it a higher range and damage, then It COULD be good and not as abusive as it's right now in the lane. HOWEVER, it NEEDS to reveal targets just as Elise Cocoon. If you catch someone in their jungle, revealing them and then bushjumping there will be a great feeling. I BEG you to add a reveal. Other than that, the change could be good together combined with the rest.



(To be continued, gotta go again)


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NoChaps

Junior Member

08-17-2013

Leave Kitty alone.


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NME Isaackaz

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Previous iteration to this (Full stealth + Warning) had issues. Current iteration (Much longer duration, Much higher MS, Much shorter CD + No Stealth) seems to be hitting the gameplay that we want but loses the Stealth that you guys really want. I think there's a way to introduce Stealth back in - i have a cool idea that might be really dumb but it's too early in the morning to know. Gonna go back to crashing, but i'll be back when i'm up to talk more.

(To those of you who actually like the No Stealth changes - this isn't about me buckling under pressure - if the 'No Stealth In Any Form Whatsoever' Ult is best for our game, i'll do it in a heartbeat. I just want to do some more exploration/prototyping on some ideas that may reincorporate Stealth for those fans who feel it makes/breaks his uniqueness.)
I have a few thoughts here that bother me and excite me with the new idea.

BOTHER NUMBER 1
The issue with the stealth that keeps being hit is the splitpushing part... I personally don't care about this part of his ult, it's called "Thrill of the Hunt" not "Running away spell". My issue is with the teamfights. In teamfights for me, it feels like Rengar's job is to kill the adc and then do as much as you can while you live. I worry that Rengar will have to do riduculous amounts of work during a fight to run ALL THE WAY AROUND THE JUNGLE to hit the enemy adc and to POSSIBLY do the same thing.

BOTHER NUMBER 2

Bola strike should reveal on hit, in my opinion even if that means taking a hit in CDR or damage.
Not sure why, just feels like it would smooth the flow of the jungle/lane for him.

LOVE NUMBER 1

THAT MOVEMENT SPEED WILL BE SO SEXY. IMAGINE HUNTING DOWN THAT ADC WHILE HE IS IN LANE AND HIM BEING LIKE " SWEET MOTHER OF KNIFECAT, RUN JANNA, RUN!" AND THEN THEY FEEL THE STABBY Q OVER AND OVER

LOVER NUMBER 2

The awesomeness of being able to bola spam seems wonderful, no more having to buy wards to hit them in lane. As a side question, is the range longer as a skillshot, and can it hit Minions/Monsters still?


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orghak 6

Member

08-17-2013

If he loses the stealth I want another refund.


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cimbop

Senior Member

08-17-2013

I don't mind what you do to him, I just don't want to see another assassin in LoL turn into a semi-tanky DPS thing that can't kill even the squishiest AD carry. There should be room in League of Legends for a champion that can independently assassinate another squishy champion, so long as their skill is obviously greater or they have been playing well that game. As it stands I find a lot of the assassins in the game lack the ability to scale and assassinate well even when they're ahead, looking at Eve and Katarina, once single target assassins now geared more towards teamfighting.


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Draciusen

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by cimbop View Post
There should be room in League of Legends for a champion that can independently assassinate another squishy champion, so long as their skill is obviously greater or they have been playing well that game.
Zed fits the bill perfectly. So naturally, expect him to get nerfs in the future courtesy of GD complaints.


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RakshirX

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Quick post because i woke up way too early, read the last 10 or so pages since i passed out 4~ hours ago, going to pass out again but -

- 28 AD/lvl is not final and i've said across many posts i'm looking to increase this. Damage numbers were kept low to see 'How worth it is this item for these types of bonuses without a heap of AD forcing you to get it?' I have less issue with this getting more AD - this is generally why i don't post numbers because they're constantly in flux. Seeing so many people saying 'I like it/could like it but the AD is so low it seems useless' is why numbers are a tuning point.

- I don't want to seem stubborn when i say that i'm going to continue to test this no-stealth version (Testing is testing, and i'm going to see how it goes) but you guys are pretty loud and clear about needing stealth in some form for this to be anywhere near what you want. I've seen enough posts/feedback that 'Like the changes, concerned/worried about loss of stealth' that i think there are some solutions to have it be back on the kit.

Previous iteration to this (Full stealth + Warning) had issues. Current iteration (Much longer duration, Much higher MS, Much shorter CD + No Stealth) seems to be hitting the gameplay that we want but loses the Stealth that you guys really want. I think there's a way to introduce Stealth back in - i have a cool idea that might be really dumb but it's too early in the morning to know. Gonna go back to crashing, but i'll be back when i'm up to talk more.

(To those of you who actually like the No Stealth changes - this isn't about me buckling under pressure - if the 'No Stealth In Any Form Whatsoever' Ult is best for our game, i'll do it in a heartbeat. I just want to do some more exploration/prototyping on some ideas that may reincorporate Stealth for those fans who feel it makes/breaks his uniqueness.)

Thanks for continuing to post - you're all very passionate about the changes, and i am never someone to turn down feedback, even for those of you who don't care for me or where i've taken it so far. I'm listening. I hope the next time i have an update it will be something that most of you can agree with!
Greetings Skarizard,
I've been running with Rengar as my main champ (on the EU server) for quite a long time and use him almost exclusively. I have to echo what others are saying about the stealth - to keep it is a must. The beauty of his playstyle revolves around it. Furthermore, it is something easily countered with pink wards and oracles (when I am rocking a match, the enemy team wisely stacks up on these, which stops me quite firmly until our support starts clearing them), so having stealth ability isn't OP.

Something I'd like to point out - many people that don't want stealth could very well be many of the same people that don't even play Rengar, but are just tired of getting stealth-ganked by him. To them, the solution is simple-> BUY PINK WARDS AND ORACLES. Twitch, Vayne, Shaco, and Khazix have stealthing abilities too - it's incredibly lopsided to eradicate one of Rengars most valuable and signature abilities, unless stealth is a mechanic that Riot is trying to eliminate entirely.

Additionally, the "consumes ferocity" function being added to his Ultimatte - PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. There's a timing issue here that is critical to helping maximize Rengar's usefulness pre-gank attempt, or even in spontaneous teamfights. I frequently stop at a jungle mob and up my fury, just so I can, if necessary, more quickly react and use an empowered ability coming out of stealth. The flames from not helping a teammate fast enough because I am waiting in my ult to generate fury - countless. We need to react quickly, and we need our Rengar burst. Please don't consume the fury upon ultimate activation.

Lastly, I've been playing Rengar since pre-nerf days, and I always thought those nerfs were overly brutal. He went from 200% on his empowered Q to 150%, then down to 100% on the final nerf. Considering that Armor stacking seriously blunts Rengar, I thought many of the complaints demanding nerfs on him were again from people that just didn't feel like putting armor in their build to deal with him. It's a bit of a dream, but I was hoping you'd up the empowered Q dmg back up a tad bit, maybe to 125 or 120%? If this is an issue at early levels, you could always make the ability grow with levels, i.e. roughly 1 additional percent per level or so, capping at 125%. Just a special request from a Rengar fan that's never had the privilege of having his suggestions read by a dev.
I appreciate you taking the time to read our thoughts and I'm hoping the end results are as good as everyone is hoping they'll be.