A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Snazzy Catz

Senior Member

08-16-2013

I mean i wasn't happy about the stealth thing but at least we have people listening to our feedback actually since alot of companies wont even do that


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WelcomeToTILT

Member

08-16-2013

OK as a avid JUNGLE Rengar player i'm skeptical to these changes.
I'm not sure why you would remove the stealth from his ultimate he is suppose to be an assassin right...? I'm very scared on how i am suppose to assassinate the enemy's high priority targets with out stealth to outplay the enemies GREEN WARDS (Pinks kinda poop on his stealth.) i'm not sold on him just running through their front line since flanking would be extremely hard without stealth. Like there IS counter play to Rengar its called PINK WARDS. just like eve twitch it makes their steathing abilities kinda a non factor in the game for the most part. all i see with these changes are the endless split pushing rengar.

Which i don't want i really enjoy rengars state atm. But what you can do is make his Q do less damage to towers like 50% and lower the damage/ad ratio on his Q to make triple Q not 100 to 0 unless they are really squishy/he is really far ahead.

I love the new W though makes his impact in the game a bit more against ad comps(but against AP champs kinda useless) if he can hit multiple people with his W he can really shut down some people for a few sec even if he doesn't kill them.

I also like how the new bone tooth is made except its kinda useless for TOP lane rengar players because it doesn't give enough ad to pick it up for laning and its stacks aren't useful unless he is snowballing pretty hard in top lane.

Now for his E change making it a skill shot is good and bad makes him have a bit more counter play.. but his top lane as someone stated is that he wont have a way to harass people behind minions(AP tops to be exact) and his W change making him have no extra resists make him playing against AP tops extremely difficult almost un winnable imo. he cant sustain their damage early hence all he can do is try to all in and push them out or he wont have effective way to control the lane.(match ups like rumble can just punish him with his Q and will not be in any real threat if he just stands behind his minions).

Just a few suggestions from a high elo Rengar player hope you read this and take it into consideration. Feel free to add me in game if you have any questions/concerns. I'm more then willing to discuss possible changes you can do with Rengar. Just please don't remove one of the defining abilities he has INVISE.
Thanks for your time

~Welcome To Heaven


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Raincall

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Best Rengar NA View Post
Good, since I know you're reading all the comments, read this:
I know you're on an agenda, but you're horrible at this. Karma is trash, and I'm fairly certain Rengar will turn out the same way in your hands. Your "balancing" skills are about as good as Blizzard's. Can't fix it? Remove it! I'm glad your idea of "rework" is "homogenized". Why play your Rengar when Singed, Rammus, Master Yi can do it better. Even jungle Singed.
This, the problem with standardizing is that you are doing nothing to make the champion attractive to both play and watch, when that should be the main purpose of a rework. Even if the changes make Rengar viable, what's the point if what he brings is already in the game?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Steamcario

Senior Member

08-16-2013

I'm still skeptical about his lane performance against any given AP champion now that his E harass is nerfed in lane and his W is only good against AD. I'm not really sure if he has many options against those champs.

even though this current ult is probably healthier for the game and overall more powerful than the previous version, It really really just doesn't feel rengar for him not to have stealth... one of the best feels about his ult is that everything gets silent and the effects really just ask you to tunnel in on your target, which you can do because you're invisible. now it's just... lol get CC'd and overall it just feels like way too many effects are present in his ult which doesn't do that much in reality.

in teamfights though... rengar is gonnnnna stiiiiiiick.on that note however, I'm somewhat concerned that bonetooth stats are just giving him more of what he already has and doesn't really need. like extra duration on his ult? even without bonetooth it's duration is longer than it would ever need to be with the upgraded MS.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Neo Queen

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
Wild felines stalk their prey by hiding in some sort of undergrowth and leaping to them. If they fail to catch them there, they will chase.
If there is no bush a wild feline will find one and wait. If a wild feline *excluding the cheetah must give chase chances are they won't catch them unless the prey makes a mistake. And even a cheetah is not guaranteed a meal. Show me a video of wild felines not stealthily stalking prey before a chase.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

R U Fukn Nuts

Junior Member

08-17-2013

The only problem with his Bola being a skillshot is that it actually makes him perform worse vs. champions with escape mechanisms. Right now you can force a teamfight with a sure 1 second snare into 1.5 sec strong slow, whereas a bola would need insane ratio, base damage and a better slow to be equal on terms of utility. No one playing Rengar that actually cares about it will tell me that these pesky champions like Ezreal or Ahri actually are easy to hit with a skillshot and so, Bola Shot could remain what it is on live (not broken, no need to fix this). The only problem this ability has since release is base damage good enough to doublecast competitively and harass in lane, while forcing an enemy to sit there and eat Rengar's hits unlike his Q. Please note that the only change you could actually apply to live version is to change empowered casts into having their own scaling damage (like LB's doublecast which has done wonders to her lategame while she remains the 'OMG MYFACE' burster early) where they would obtain base damages a bit higher than rank 5 at level 18.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestya View Post
I have no qualms with iterative ideas, and in fact love how you guys are willing to try things, but you can't just say "these are potential changes" and once you start receiving negative feedback about them, get all pissy and defensive. Some people got a little out of hand, yes, but fueling that portion by acknowledging and directing your response to them...really invalidates the worries we have to begin with.

Stealth removal from Rengar isn't a problem because "Predator" it's because he's "The Pridestalker". I don't remember ever hearing "stalking" and "runs real fast at them" in the same sentence ever. But, disregarding reasonings for his ult, I'm actually personally more concerned about his W and E. These are losing HUGE on power and utility. He'll have so many counterplay options for enemies where he's left with little to do on his own merit. His W won't help him against AP, his E will be highly unreliable in lane, and his R absorbing his Ferocity stacks limits his options elsewhere (or worse yet might even force him to build up Ferocity to use his ult well...)

I respect your desire to iterate and ask for feedback, but spurning us because we provide said feedback seems counterproductive. I would totally understand if you were spurning people for any sort of irrational comments (you know what I'm talking about I hope), but really people like myself are concerned about a direction which has potential to exist. It doesn't help Rengar, it hurts him. This is taken from the theorycrafting knowledge I have of all current potential champs and what they do. The changes to Rengar will isolate him to jungle only, and restricting champs to one specific role...feels really awful.
Apologies if i'm coming off as 'pissy' - i don't intend to be. The negative feedback is a very important part of an iterative cycle, and in this case one that i anticipated. I'm going to continue testing it, but this was all intended as a 'Heads up, we're testing this and it's a possible outcome so i'd rather you know now' than a surprise change. If anything, my re-iteration that no changes are final isn't trying to get snippy with any of you, but just trying to keep you guys realistic. This is not the end of the world. This is likely not even the end of these changes. Overreacting about changes that may or may not occur is something that keeps out good discussion, and a lot of people so far have been able to disagree with me without yelling or in one case telling me to kill myself (stay classy).

W's changes are intended to build in a strength and weakness in one go. By shifting his power budget to make him super effective vs a certain set of champions, we can also make him weaker vs some others so when you see 'They have an AD + Bruisers' you can feel better about your Rengar selection, or that when the enemy picks Rengar you can say 'X type champion will do really well here'. The W changes aren't 100% necessary for the rework to ship which is why i'm trying it out, but does give it a targeted use-case and shuts down some opposing laners in Top as well as making him have a better go at jungle, so it's worth scouting out the potential.

To me, 'stalking' can mean just as much about strength/speed/stalking in a brush or fog of war rather than stealth. A lot of these changes are targeted around making Rengar more scary not only in brush, but in skirmishes/disorganized fights in places near it and Fog of War (Dragon, Baron, Buffs) and lowering his power outside of those zones. Rengar -can- have stealth if he needs it, but making him King of the Jungle (not necessarily in role, but in literal map locations) may not necessitate it.

Again, i don't mean to spurn anyone - i'm just against any type of reaction that limits discussion. As for your thoughts on 'this kills lane Rengar' - why do you feel that way? I see that the changes can come off as more Jungle Rengar specifically because it's something i want to improve, but nothing in testing has shown that Top Rengar is any weaker at all outside of level 2 instagib cases. His W makes him take next to no minion damage and gives him great trading potential vs bruisers/assassins alike and while his E is no longer targeted, hitting it from a longer range is a great enabler - not to mention it's just as easy to hit once you've used brush to leap directly on to your target, dealing more damage and allowing you to wail on your opponent with Q's buffed AS%. That + buffs to health/health regen in the main post make me most excited to play him toplane, as a top-laner main specifically. I'd like more insight into why you feel Top Rengar suffers here?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kawaii Carlos

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Keep his stealth, make him not leap in ult, therefore u have to be next to them or in the bush to leap

all good rengar players choose their fights in the bushes for better positioning anyway and attack in melee range if possible because there is less reaction time from the opponent


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Aardison1

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Apologies if i'm coming off as 'pissy' - i don't intend to be. The negative feedback is a very important part of an iterative cycle, and in this case one that i anticipated. I'm going to continue testing it, but this was all intended as a 'Heads up, we're testing this and it's a possible outcome so i'd rather you know now' than a surprise change. If anything, my re-iteration that no changes are final isn't trying to get snippy with any of you, but just trying to keep you guys realistic. This is not the end of the world. This is likely not even the end of these changes. Overreacting about changes that may or may not occur is something that keeps out good discussion, and a lot of people so far have been able to disagree with me without yelling or in one case telling me to kill myself (stay classy).
We may be overreacting but if we didn't overreact a lil you would not know how much this issue effects us or how much it offends us so although some may have gone too far, sometimes people must go to far to let others know that their actions are not acceptable to them.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gespens

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Again, i don't mean to spurn anyone - i'm just against any type of reaction that limits discussion. As for your thoughts on 'this kills lane Rengar' - why do you feel that way? I see that the changes can come off as more Jungle Rengar specifically because it's something i want to improve, but nothing in testing has shown that Top Rengar is any weaker at all outside of level 2 instagib cases. His W makes him take next to no minion damage and gives him great trading potential vs bruisers/assassins alike and while his E is no longer targeted, hitting it from a longer range is a great enabler - not to mention it's just as easy to hit once you've used brush to leap directly on to your target, dealing more damage and allowing you to wail on your opponent with Q's buffed AS%. That + buffs to health/health regen in the main post make me most excited to play him toplane, as a top-laner main specifically. I'd like more insight into why you feel Top Rengar suffers here?
While I like the changes, you need to remember that GD thinks that all bruisers are obsolete because they don't see LCS play. However the change to his ultimate was basically a cheese that a lot of people really liked using when you had a gank coming, since you could go back, pretend to recall, bck off a bit more, ult, then run towards them and QQWE them with your jungler for a kill.

This basically removes that. In addition, the AD reduction does not help against mages in top, such as Vladimir, Rumble, etc.