A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Jbels

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by geezerforhire View Post
anyone who has played kennen top can attest to the harass potential

top rengar might actually end up better(more of a duelist now)

but i still don't like the ult changes OR the necklace changes(**** stats and with the new ult i don't see stacks happening)

how bout at 9 stacks he gets stealth back if you think its 2 OP to just have
What, so you can give one more thing for Rengar fans to hate about their favorite champ when they aren't doing well in a game? Stealth combined with that MS would ensure that the enemy team always keeps Rengar down so they won't have to deal with the stealth.


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Koechophe

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Senior Member

08-16-2013

I just don't know what you expect rengar to DO in a teamfight.

* You've stated that you aren't turning him into a boring bruiser

* You've stated that he's no longer going to be an assassin

* He's obviously not going to be an adc or a long ranged mage

So what? That just leaves us with split pushing, which everyone hates. He if he can't poke, can't tank, can't assassinate and can't cc them to death, then what good will he be?

I also don't understand how these are buffs. You've removed utility from his ult, removed damage, removed utility from his E (Because having it be a skill shot adds utility in 99% of cases) and removing tankiness, how is this buffing him? A lot of what you're saying is just "Take our word for it, this is good". Why can't you just explain WHY it's good? From my perspective, it's really not.


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Your Shadow

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape
Stop talking.

Just stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly.
Landing a blind skillshot as opposed to losing vision and being unable to hit a targeted ability does not make you "better". It is simply a more effective mechanic in that situation.


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Steamcario

Senior Member

08-16-2013

I mean, not like you can bush juke rengar anyways xelnath... with current rengar you'd follow into bush then jump on them THEN slow them... the E is a sticking tool, not a gapcloser, rengar already has too many of those. seriously bonetooth bonuses just give him mobility he doesn't need.


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Lan Moon

Senior Member

08-16-2013

A rock could probably make a better rework than this


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Ding an Sich

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplane View Post
I don't think they care since they CLEARLY don't take player advice or listen to the players in general

just look at Karma right now
There's a huge difference between listening, and implementing what you decided to hear, especially when it is used in an aspect like balancing. This holds especially true for Karma where either keeping her the same was not a viable option, and taking advice from everyone isn't a feesible one.

On why it wasn't proper to keep karma the way she was: Karma was one of the final champions who had alot of what Lol was made up when it had little to no real balance design. Other champions who have fallen into this category or were once in this category have either received a rework, or have been severely nerfed until an appropriate kit/play style could be adopted that didn't involve such an objective nuisance on the game or those around them. Even more the viability of karma was extremely deflated, and she was only picked because of her absurd abuse cases. She mat still have a lower rate overall, but her identity is more solid, and has more versatility, and while her popularity can be improved, at least removing most of the problems is a better place to be, then leaving them up still.

As for following or doing what everyone says: You can look at the xelnath threads, the xyph threads, the morello threads, and out of the hundreds responses ever given, there is usually 3-4x times that amount in actual community "feedback" left technically unanswered or un-looked at. However Riot has made it clear while they may not respond to 100% of all the posts, they do read through a majority of them to a certain point. However, the communities ideas are not solid, there are so many different players with different ideas, that objectively good ideas can exist, but missing a crucial element that actually makes them feesible or implmentable. I won't even discuss the more objectively "bad" ideas that extremely player specifically biased that usually are removed from the actual state or health of the game/champion.

This arguably comes down to a simple realization: this is by far a normal or expected situation. Whether it be from the disappointed player side (they didn't choose my idea), or from Riot's side (how can we make them understand)in terms of expectations and reality clashing. Much of what is said, especially your comment is not only unjustified but rude, but at the same time the environment Riot has encouraged understands and supports this. They choose this, it would just save alot of time and effort for players to stop acting so black and white sometimes as soon as reality sets in.


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MasterForce

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Removing the stealth is somewhat a huge nerf if it goes live. Rengar will be CC'ed to hell before he even reaches his target, unless he comes and clean up. However, he doesn't even have the multi-kill potential like Yi does because he can only kill 1 champion. So, basically, if his ultimate doesn't have the stealth, he would rarely pick up kills simply because of the fact that his Ultimate doesn't have slow immunity. There's basically no way of him getting kills by using his Ultimate if he was to team fight with it.

These changes might be really amazing somehow, but I really need to play it to believe it. (Obviously this is a nerf, but if he doesn't even have pressure in team fights, why would I use him over some better champs like KhaZix, Talon, etc... Those champs have almost the same role as Rengar, but will do the job much better than Rengar since they would have more burst, have more mobility, and more importantly, the stealth. Think about it, would Vayne be the same without the Stealth from her ult? Of course not! Would KhaZix be the same without his Stealth? NOOO!!! And would Twitch be the same without his Stealth? Just like the other answers, it would be NO. The stealth is actually contributing to the surprise factor. Would it have the same feeling if Rengar was moving as fast as Yi and jumping on you like when Yi uses his Q? NO! Rengar just became a Master Yi without Pentakill potential.


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Lachdannon

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Im sorta glad to see a melee stealth/flash burster getting some attention, what with all of them being re tard ed. I'd just like to say, no champion should have instant stealth, and they certainly, absolutely shouldn't have ALSO flash/dash from said stealth, and absolutely, positively, oh my ****ing god it is so obvious, they shouldn't be able to burst someone from 100 to 0, in less than 3 seconds, from said stealth. This is obvious to anyone with any intellect.

So thanks(sort of), for looking into one of these cases.

Sadly I have absolutely no faith, or belief that things will improve. Hell, the number of abusive melee stealth flash burst characters is probably going to increase, this is just pissing into the wind.





Wish this was sarcasm.


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F r 0 s T i

Senior Member

08-16-2013

So I understand that the movement speed is a good thing for escaping/chasing. However, the stealth can create plays/opportunities that will not not be available. With the damage reduction to his Q (I understand you said that you moved the damage around, but that has not been successful in the past.) Removing the instaburst off of of Rengar AND removing his stealth is going to be a HUGE hit to his play style. People picked Rengar for his ability to not be seen when moving past the from lines. If you were to leave the damage on his q OR leave the stealth on his ult I, and many other people feel it would be fine.

Also, by saying there is no counter play to stealth is a bit exaggerated. Fighting an Akali in lane? Pink ward. Eve jungle? Pink ward. Item counter play is a huge part of league. Saying its "Antifun" to have to sink money into pink wards is like saying it's "antifun" to buy armor VS. a quad ad comp.

I think you guys at riot do a great job, but this is the wrong direction I think.


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CynicalGiant

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
I was really skeptical about these changes. In particular, when I saw them on paper, I didn't like the change to a skill-shot on E or the stealth removal on R.


... then at Scarizard and Wav3break's insistence, I actually played it. It worked really well. I didn't realize until after the game how little I missed the stealth. In fact, most cases where I would have used the stealth to escape - I could simply outrun the enemy.

Similarly, in cases where I would normally try to use my ult to stealth & run, but it would fail on live, due to never getting the "stealth" effect off, I occasionally survived.

The skillshot version actually made me a *better* player. People couldn't vision juke me into brush - I bola shot them blindly. The skill shot also makes me more dangerous in ganks - the range is far better than on live.

I acknowledge the validity of your skepticism, but as a veteran Rengar player, I didn't realize how little I appreciated the stealth until I was sprinting around the map without the need to use it.
WE LIKED RENGAR BECAUSE THE STEALTH MADE HIM FEEL LIKE A PREDATOR NOT BECAUSE IT WAS GOOD

why would you take it away?