A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bl00dyH3ll1

Member

08-16-2013

I know how to fix this
Q does 100% maximum health as true damage
W reduces all incoming damage by 100%
E stuns for 999 seconds
R enemy nexus health reduced to 0%
There solved!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Crai Crushna

Senior Member

08-16-2013

For Bonetooth necklace, why not make it Monsters and Minions for the extra damage. This way you can increase Lane Rengar without having to nerf Jung Rengar.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zerglinator

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nores View Post
or they can leave him alone. instead of giving him to scarizard who gave us karma rework
Yeah, the forums weren't complaining at ALL about Rengar being ignored and left to rot boo hoo hoo.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mobius01

Junior Member

08-16-2013

NO NO NO as an avid rengar player this is a huge mistake, I honestly believe you're nerfing rengar even more, I read these changes and almost threw up from disbelief.
2 HUGE ISSUEs
Q) you said you want to keep his hunting playstle but you REMOVED STEALTH from his ultimate.
THE STEALTH WAS THE BEST PART, And was the best part of his kit for connection with a " hunter " feeling.
That is just a huge nerf overall.


Riot you need to realize rengar is not just played in the jungle, but mostly top lane.

Having said this, why is bone tooth now a Jungle item essentially??

And Finnaly: Since rengar is also played toplane, making bola strike a skills hit completely ERASES all lot of his poke/trade potential in a top matchup, you are just setting him up to get crushed in lane, you want him to be a jungled, But that's not how the majority of players like to play him!

Just my 2 Cents, if anyone disagrees feel free to counter my argument, ill respond for a good debate.

Just please, you're ruining the Rengar that players love, and I don't think these changes are for the better, AT ALL


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mobius01

Junior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Update time!

So, after some tests, the big changes i've made are pretty close to what i'd like to see in the final version. I'll go through some of the core changes to my current changelist here, the reasoning behind it, and then update the main post with the differences as well. If i don't make mention of a mechanic from Live or from my previous post in these updates, it means they haven't changed.

Bonetooth Necklace
10 AD, 1 AD/Level
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush

6 Stacks: Leap range increased

9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt lasts X seconds longer

14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush


Direction with Bonetooth as i've previously stated is to reduce the 'Stat bonus' focus on Bonetooth, and make it more Rengar-specific and use it as a tool to embrace and enhance Rengar's stalking/hunting gameplay. Feedback on this direction has been going well and people are digging the direction, i'll give my specific feelings about the bonuses.

3 Stacks - Enjoying how this is playing as an early-game reward that enables Rengar's roaming, jungle or otherwise. Live Rengar has the Movement Speed bonus at Tier 2, idea is to move it to Tier 1 and make it less-permanent (Boots of Mobility) while being able retain the Flat MS while chasing targets through brush. Basically, ganking sidelanes and using the brush or fighting in the jungle keep Rengar speedy even if he's flagged as in-combat.

6 Stacks - Really simple. *slightly* nerfed the leap range due to it moving to Tier 2 from Tier 3 and thus more accessible, but hitting this threshold really makes him 'turn on' in terms of midgame power. Liking this.

9 Stacks - Mostly placeholder, but i enjoy the effect. Likely could just add a bonus together with the increased duration to give a fixed power spike that Rengar can rely on for making it this far. Totally agree with any of you that this falls a little short on expectations especially at Tier 3. This is the only one i have less-than-high confidence for as a rewarding effect.

14 Stacks - This...is very powerful. Not only does it synergize with Rengar's 3 stack for out of combat brush darting/chasing, this -also- means that Rengar has access to bonus movement speed after leaping from brush. Haven't gotten to this threshhold except for once, which when combo'd with the updates to Thrill of the Hunt that you'll see below made for some -really- epic hunting experiences. Might tune this up, might slightly change, but this is the type of thing i want to see from Tier 4 Bonetooth.

Battle Roar
-No Longer grants Armor/Magic Resistance
-Enemies hit with Battle Roar have their Attack Damage reduced


If you've read my prior posts, you know my feelings about Battle Roar - specifically that it doesn't especially inform who Rengar should be effective against, and thus just gives up a lump of power that's hard to tune while remaining satisfying. Feedback from this thread also has been consistent that Battle Roar's allure is Rengar imposing his will/intimidating opponents, not I AM LOUD AND TANKIER NOW.

Attack Damage reduction allows him to handle jungle minions pretty well, but also makes him a monster in fights vs champions that rely on basic attacks/physical damage abilities (like carries, or other fighters), while still keeping him vulnerable to magic damage abilities from tanks/mages. Overall, the goal is that if AD reduction can work out you can reach a spot where leaping onto Physical Damage dealers and roaring makes you feel more like you're actively shutting down their damage potential rather than just being beefier than usual. Before you guys start biting my head off about how he won't have the tankiness to survive , i totally see this as an opportunity to introduce better base stats if it shows that he desperately needs the durability.

Bola Strike
-Is now a skillshot
-Increased Range


Wav3break was always pushing for this and i was always pushing against it, but after having played around with it i really, really like it. Making E a skillshot allows the skill to generally have more power (Range, Damage, Effect are all vectors to tune, though i'd rather lean on the first two) - but also gives Rengar the feeling of 'i have an option at all times'. Even when out of brush and in a siege situation, a traditional weakness of Rengar, the ability to harrass or create picks with Bola/Empowered Bola grants him more flexibility. Similarly, playing against feedback has been great (Got first blood with a jungle gank using Empowered E - felt like a boss landing the clutch shot, opponent felt it was much more fair due to being able to dodge).

In general, making Rengar's pattern once he leaps on a target require more play/interplay and less guaranteed allows him to feel much better when he -does- succeed. This change has been trending well, but is something that we'll be watching across future playtests to tune to appropriate power.

And for the big one:
Thrill of the Hunt
-Cooldown decreased
-No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
-Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
-No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
-Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
-Movement Speed increased
-Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.


So, we tried something crazy with the ultimate when concerns came about that the VO/Icon gameplay, while functional, was removing a lot of Rengar's threat because people knew his gameplan. By taking -off- the stealth entirely and just overloading the parts of Rengar's ult that people were appreciating (Ferocity Generation, Insane Mobility, True Vision) and let him have access to it more. Mid and end-game Rengar's spend a majority of their time being predatory in nature, stalking brush and being opportunistic upon chasing down low-health targets post-fights - which is also made easier by giving him movementspeed post-landing, allowing him to execute his Q-train combo/Bola strike without just failing to keep up to his prey. On the other end making Rengar's gank + ult combo reliant on 'brute forcing' a gank ala Hecarim's E or Rammus' Powerball gives your opponent ways to play against it either by seeing them coming on wards and running or by otherwise predicting the gank paths a Rengar may take.

I agree that it sounds big...but the more we've played with it, the more people have realized the Stealth part of Thrill of the Hunt is perhaps the least-appreciated part. You still run insanely fast, you still leap. Removing Stealth also allows us to pull back slightly on some of the damage nerfs we've done to Rengar, as he telegraphs his intent very easily by being an insanely fast rocket cat.

(Bonus Round - To give you an idea of what we're dealing with, Rengar with no Boots, 14 Stack Bonetooth, Rank 3 Thrill of the Hunt and 5 Points of Ferocity can run from the bottom lane brush to the toplane's river brush before the Ultimate's duration times out, as long as you make clever use of all the brush inbetween.

That's with no boots. It's pretty awesome to see.

So, be sure to let me know what y'all think about this version. When Rengar goes to PBE (SoonTM), this is likely very close to the one that i'll throw up for players to mess around with. A lot of your feedback has helped a ton in shaping the versions of Rengar in testing and lot of the conversations we've been having, so don't stop now!
NO NO NO as an avid rengar player this is a huge mistake, I honestly believe you're nerfing rengar even more, I read these changes and almost threw up from disbelief.
2 HUGE ISSUEs
Q) you said you want to keep his hunting playstle but you REMOVED STEALTH from his ultimate.
THE STEALTH WAS THE BEST PART, And was the best part of his kit for connection with a " hunter " feeling.
That is just a huge nerf overall.


Riot you need to realize rengar is not just played in the jungle, but mostly top lane.

Having said this, why is bone tooth now a Jungle item essentially??

And Finnaly: Since rengar is also played toplane, making bola strike a skills hit completely ERASES all lot of his poke/trade potential in a top matchup, you are just setting him up to get crushed in lane, you want him to be a jungled, But that's not how the majority of players like to play him!

Just my 2 Cents, if anyone disagrees feel free to counter my argument, ill respond for a good debate.

Just please, you're ruining the Rengar that players love, and I don't think these changes are for the better, AT ALL


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

petraArk

Junior Member

08-16-2013

Here ya go Riot I think you got a little confused:

fix
[fiks] Show IPA verb, fixed or fixt, fix·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to repair; mend.
2.
to put in order or in good condition; adjust or arrrange: She fixed her hair in a bun.
3.
to make fast, firm, or stable.
4.
to place definitely and more or less permanently: to fix a circus poster to a wall.
5.
to settle definitely; determine: to fix a price.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TheUrgottenOne

Senior Member

08-16-2013

if these changes go through i expect a full refund on rengar, this is not the jungler i paid for and is flat out disgraceful. Rengar is a hard champ to use as it is, which is good. I am tired of stupidly easy champs like aatrox and yi, but rengar was intended to be a jungler not a bruiser, his skill set is for a jungler, not a bruiser, buff his jungling and make it more viable but dont destroy him.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mobius01

Junior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Update time!

So, after some tests, the big changes i've made are pretty close to what i'd like to see in the final version. I'll go through some of the core changes to my current changelist here, the reasoning behind it, and then update the main post with the differences as well. If i don't make mention of a mechanic from Live or from my previous post in these updates, it means they haven't changed.

Bonetooth Necklace
10 AD, 1 AD/Level
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush

6 Stacks: Leap range increased

9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt lasts X seconds longer

14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush


Direction with Bonetooth as i've previously stated is to reduce the 'Stat bonus' focus on Bonetooth, and make it more Rengar-specific and use it as a tool to embrace and enhance Rengar's stalking/hunting gameplay. Feedback on this direction has been going well and people are digging the direction, i'll give my specific feelings about the bonuses.

3 Stacks - Enjoying how this is playing as an early-game reward that enables Rengar's roaming, jungle or otherwise. Live Rengar has the Movement Speed bonus at Tier 2, idea is to move it to Tier 1 and make it less-permanent (Boots of Mobility) while being able retain the Flat MS while chasing targets through brush. Basically, ganking sidelanes and using the brush or fighting in the jungle keep Rengar speedy even if he's flagged as in-combat.

6 Stacks - Really simple. *slightly* nerfed the leap range due to it moving to Tier 2 from Tier 3 and thus more accessible, but hitting this threshold really makes him 'turn on' in terms of midgame power. Liking this.

9 Stacks - Mostly placeholder, but i enjoy the effect. Likely could just add a bonus together with the increased duration to give a fixed power spike that Rengar can rely on for making it this far. Totally agree with any of you that this falls a little short on expectations especially at Tier 3. This is the only one i have less-than-high confidence for as a rewarding effect.

14 Stacks - This...is very powerful. Not only does it synergize with Rengar's 3 stack for out of combat brush darting/chasing, this -also- means that Rengar has access to bonus movement speed after leaping from brush. Haven't gotten to this threshhold except for once, which when combo'd with the updates to Thrill of the Hunt that you'll see below made for some -really- epic hunting experiences. Might tune this up, might slightly change, but this is the type of thing i want to see from Tier 4 Bonetooth.

Battle Roar
-No Longer grants Armor/Magic Resistance
-Enemies hit with Battle Roar have their Attack Damage reduced


If you've read my prior posts, you know my feelings about Battle Roar - specifically that it doesn't especially inform who Rengar should be effective against, and thus just gives up a lump of power that's hard to tune while remaining satisfying. Feedback from this thread also has been consistent that Battle Roar's allure is Rengar imposing his will/intimidating opponents, not I AM LOUD AND TANKIER NOW.

Attack Damage reduction allows him to handle jungle minions pretty well, but also makes him a monster in fights vs champions that rely on basic attacks/physical damage abilities (like carries, or other fighters), while still keeping him vulnerable to magic damage abilities from tanks/mages. Overall, the goal is that if AD reduction can work out you can reach a spot where leaping onto Physical Damage dealers and roaring makes you feel more like you're actively shutting down their damage potential rather than just being beefier than usual. Before you guys start biting my head off about how he won't have the tankiness to survive , i totally see this as an opportunity to introduce better base stats if it shows that he desperately needs the durability.

Bola Strike
-Is now a skillshot
-Increased Range


Wav3break was always pushing for this and i was always pushing against it, but after having played around with it i really, really like it. Making E a skillshot allows the skill to generally have more power (Range, Damage, Effect are all vectors to tune, though i'd rather lean on the first two) - but also gives Rengar the feeling of 'i have an option at all times'. Even when out of brush and in a siege situation, a traditional weakness of Rengar, the ability to harrass or create picks with Bola/Empowered Bola grants him more flexibility. Similarly, playing against feedback has been great (Got first blood with a jungle gank using Empowered E - felt like a boss landing the clutch shot, opponent felt it was much more fair due to being able to dodge).

In general, making Rengar's pattern once he leaps on a target require more play/interplay and less guaranteed allows him to feel much better when he -does- succeed. This change has been trending well, but is something that we'll be watching across future playtests to tune to appropriate power.

And for the big one:
Thrill of the Hunt
-Cooldown decreased
-No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
-Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
-No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
-Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
-Movement Speed increased
-Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.


So, we tried something crazy with the ultimate when concerns came about that the VO/Icon gameplay, while functional, was removing a lot of Rengar's threat because people knew his gameplan. By taking -off- the stealth entirely and just overloading the parts of Rengar's ult that people were appreciating (Ferocity Generation, Insane Mobility, True Vision) and let him have access to it more. Mid and end-game Rengar's spend a majority of their time being predatory in nature, stalking brush and being opportunistic upon chasing down low-health targets post-fights - which is also made easier by giving him movementspeed post-landing, allowing him to execute his Q-train combo/Bola strike without just failing to keep up to his prey. On the other end making Rengar's gank + ult combo reliant on 'brute forcing' a gank ala Hecarim's E or Rammus' Powerball gives your opponent ways to play against it either by seeing them coming on wards and running or by otherwise predicting the gank paths a Rengar may take.

I agree that it sounds big...but the more we've played with it, the more people have realized the Stealth part of Thrill of the Hunt is perhaps the least-appreciated part. You still run insanely fast, you still leap. Removing Stealth also allows us to pull back slightly on some of the damage nerfs we've done to Rengar, as he telegraphs his intent very easily by being an insanely fast rocket cat.

(Bonus Round - To give you an idea of what we're dealing with, Rengar with no Boots, 14 Stack Bonetooth, Rank 3 Thrill of the Hunt and 5 Points of Ferocity can run from the bottom lane brush to the toplane's river brush before the Ultimate's duration times out, as long as you make clever use of all the brush inbetween.

That's with no boots. It's pretty awesome to see.

So, be sure to let me know what y'all think about this version. When Rengar goes to PBE (SoonTM), this is likely very close to the one that i'll throw up for players to mess around with. A lot of your feedback has helped a ton in shaping the versions of Rengar in testing and lot of the conversations we've been having, so don't stop now!
Work on another champ like pantheon, not rengar, rengar does not need a rework as bad as MANY other champs, such as pantheon.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

A Retarded Clown

Senior Member

08-16-2013

if this is what rengar is will you offer reworks. You are completely destroying the part of him that is wanted and loved by most people who bought both him and his skin and that's what we paid for.

If he had a lousy MS buff as his ult I would never have bought him cuz having to ult just to get an MS buff that decays once I jump on people is ****ing stupid. You do realize he can be slowed/stunned/knocked back before his jump now and essentially becomes another free kill for the adc instead of a proper assassin (which he barely is now).

Your previous idea of allowing enemies to know you are coming but not to actually stop you from jumping on them is much better since it allows for skillfull play. We don't want more stat buffs that take away our unique play choices so he can have more stats, taht's just going the way of the stale s2 meta.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Get Lucky

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Ok
I really want to try this out on pbe, but my thoughts right now are 2 important things
1. I dunno about skillshot e. People being able to dodge his only cc with minions in the way or any easy jukes seems unfair. If he only has one cc move, it should be more reliable. It already does decent damage, right now its fine in my eyes.

2. I'm unsure of removing stealth from ult. I do realize that Vision wards counter him hard, but at the same time, when ulting onto an ususpecting enemy, it really does give me a thrill. Just my thoughts, the real Thrill of the Hunt is jumping onto an unsuspecting enemy.
If I could get your thoughts on mine I'd appreciate it a lot