A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Chaosos

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Could tier 3 maybe extend the vision radius? Also, can you use empowered battle roar or empowered bola without breaking ult?


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Zerglinator

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Unsure about getting the VO - Predator vision is staying the same as it is on live. In fact, increased duration means you get longer time in Infrared! My comments about removing VO/Icons is referring specifically to the VO/Icons that the Enemy would see when Rengar ulted, not the one's Rengar himself sees.
I would like them to stay...and maybe have it so that nearby allies/enemies with vision of him hear it. I like those signature quotes upon activating an ult, and Rengar's are all very intimidating. And since he doesn't stealth, it should be pretty obvious he's activating his ult, so what's the harm in hearing that?

What I'm saying is that I'd like to hear the Ult VOs for Rengar without having to actually play Rengar. Kha'Zix is much more my thing.

Also there are special VOs for Thrill of the Hunt that interact with Kha'Zix that are already in the game. Those MUST stay.


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RYKK888

Recruiter

08-16-2013

Ok wow. Just wow. For all the non-ult changes, I think theyīre marvelous. Especially E being a skillshot Iīm extremely happy about. Apon seeing the removal of stealth from the ultimate though, my first reaction was NO WAY. Then thinking about it further, as crazy as it seems, it might actually work.

However, the biggest problem I have with taking stealth out of his ult is that it destroys an integral part of Rengar. I originally bought him (my second champion after Chogath) because I loved the stealth part of his ultimate. Even post-nerfs, he has one of-- if not the most-- powerful stealth abilities in game. Taking that away removes so much from a thematic and enjoyment point of view. Sneaking around, escaping through the jungle, and setting up knifecat ambushes is such a characteristic part of Rengar that Iīd be really sad to see it go.

On the other hand, from all the discussions so far about his actual realistic playstyle, I can see how these changes could help him as a champion. Taking away stealth allows us to amp up his other characteristics, allowing for far more consistant performance in game as an assassin, ganker, split pusher, and post-fight chaser. Removing stealth and instead keeping Rengar as a high-damage Rocket Kitty allows him to still do almost all of these things, except initiate fights by attempting to insta-gib the carry (which was frustrating to both the enemy team and Rengar players as it was almost always a suicidal gamble). I can see this new ult as allowing him to have a lot more usefulness to the team and be more solid as a champion.

Itīs a tough call though-- these current changes fix a lot of the problems with Rengar and make him potentially better than he was from a game-play and stat perspective. But itīs at the cost of one of his signature moves that (along with bush-jumping) is honestly the most fun part about Rengar. If his ult even retained some form of stealth, it would feel a lot better (maybe a passive 1 sec stealth coming out of bushes as mentioned a few pages back). Rengar without stealth just doesnīt feel like Rengar, even if he plays a lot better because of it.

Just my thoughts. Thanks


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Nores

Senior Member

08-16-2013

hmm quite interesting change to ult . but really what concerns me is battle roar changes and triple q changes. the only reason rengar is semi viable now (very high risk /high reward) is his ability to assassinate target if well farmed. without triple q he cant do it no matter what.

losing mr/ar on his battle roar means he definetely cant be played like a bruiser either ( he cant do it now)

if rengar doesnt have damage nor tankiness then what he really is?


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hartar

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Senior Member

08-16-2013

I think removing the stealth is bad because it lose the effect of him been a hunter.One the reasson that Rengar and Kha Zix give the felling that they are hunter and predator is the stealth.I really dont like that.For me make no sense a hunter without a stealth.To support me on this the Predator have a stealth.And i am sure Rengar has so preadator base on he creation,litteray one the skin is based of the predator from the movie.So why remove the stealth?


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CiaphasCainX

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
To your first point, it still generates Ferocity. As i said before, if i didn't mention it changing it stays the same - that's the reason the 'consuming' ferocity on cast part exists to an extent. If you Ult with Rengar at 5 stacks sometimes it feels like you're missing the Ferocity Generation part of the ultimate - so casting R with Ferocity stacks pre-built allows to you 'Empower' it by giving it more duration, and you'll buyback the Ferocity anyways over the next few seconds.

My reference to Rammus/Hecarim may have also been a tad unclear as well - these champions due to their incredible speed make it such that standard ward placement isn't near as effective to prevent ganks as other junglers - Seeing a powerball in your river brush isn't giving you at all the time necessary to react - Rengar's ultimate functions the same way, but gives flexibility to go from different locations due to the Leap associated with it (from behind tower wall is an example of a place Rengar could get to an leap from with relative ease). This wasn't to say that Rengar plays similarly to them or serves the same role, just that they share the same Gank strengths. (say what you will about Hecarim or Rammus's power levels, but you can't deny that ganking is kind of their thing.)

As for seeing them as nerfs, i entirely understand. I'm not posting numbers here so it's hard to really feel the impact the changes will have, especially when so many of them (Bola strike, R) require playing to get the feel of. While i'll continue to iterate internally, i'd like to get this on PBE within the next few patches so that you and others who share your opinion can get a few games on and see if you feel the same way.



Unsure about getting the VO - Predator vision is staying the same as it is on live. In fact, increased duration means you get longer time in Infrared! My comments about removing VO/Icons is referring specifically to the VO/Icons that the Enemy would see when Rengar ulted in my previous iteration, not the ones Rengar himself sees currently on Live..



At present, it's a unique passive but doesn't share the Maim/Butcher keyword like Wriggles or the Spirit Items, meaning you could very easily double-up on them if you so desired.



Effects have been testing positively, would like to tweak the stats so that the item feels appropriately slot-efficient statwise, but not by too much - the vision for Rengar isn't that this item is a 'must-buy' - it's still a risk/reward item, but retuned so that the item itself is appealing to those who want to really embrace and play up Rengar's identity as a hunter.

I'll echo my previous post and say that i'm not super stoked about the Tier 3 as a standalone, but everything else feels really powerful/enabling for Rengar.
Fair enough Scarizard. I was probably a bit hasty in my fury, but the last thing I want to see is Rengar relegated to the bargain bin of junglers. I get enough **** as it is jungling with him rather than top laning, so I wasn't looking forward to it being any worse.

If he's as fast as you say he is, than perhaps he'll be fast enough where there is simply no way to escape. I'm still not sure about the bola change, but I suppose if it roots for longer than it's acceptable. At least tell me it goes through minions.

I have a PBE account so i'll be chomping at the bit to test him when he gets put up.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-16-2013
51 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by emTmyclipin2u View Post
Bonetooth feels bad in like 90% of situations. 28 ad at level 18 for some utility upgrades doesn't seem worth it. E change seems nice.
Between losing tankiness on w, lack of extra damage on empowered q, and no stealth on his ult, how do you expect him to perform in teamfights? He can't get through the front line by force. He can't sneak through the front line. Even if he gets through he can't put enough damage out to instagib them, and for him to have a chance he'll be squishy enough to die to AOE in two seconds. He can't triple q from his ult. AD reductions are not very effective lategame, unless it is a percentage. I feel like this will be new Yi all over again, he will stomp at low elo where no one wards, and splits up and is out of position all the time, but in high Elo where no one goes into an unwarded jungle alone, he just is going to split push, because that's all he can do. And similar to Yi, he will be nerfed until he isn't in any better spot than he was before, except worse now that everyone who played him for stealth gibs won't be able to. Just like Eve, Kat, and soon-to-be Yi, no one will improve their opinion from now and you just spent a ton of resources on a circle that actually lost fans.
On bonetooth, i'm definitely looking to make it feel better for Lane Rengar as well, and if this needs more stats i'm more than willing to give them, as long as it doesn't end up being a must-buy or too good for its stats.

His damage itself hasn't been reduced -that- much, it's just spread out over a slightly longer period of time so that opponents have a greater time to react. If Rengar needs more damage, i'll easily put more damage back on to the kit. In general though, damage dealers aren't really expected to jump into the middle of 5 people, kill their target and then live. Rengar still has to be opportunistic, and his ultimate gives him a large window of time to capitalize on enemy mistakes and mispositioning, especially when fighting near Dragon/areas with a lot of brush.

We'll be keeping an eye on his performance in teamfights (nothing out of the ordinary so far), but this is not a champion where you should expect to dive in alone to a team with no backup and carry out an assassination. When played appropriately however, you can really flank/control an area with the amount of mobility he has access to and kill people out of position one-by-one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
I would like them to stay...and maybe have it so that nearby allies/enemies with vision of him hear it. I like those signature quotes upon activating an ult, and Rengar's are all very intimidating. And since he doesn't stealth, it should be pretty obvious he's activating his ult, so what's the harm in hearing that?

What I'm saying is that I'd like to hear the Ult VOs for Rengar without having to actually play Rengar. Kha'Zix is much more my thing.

Also there are special VOs for Thrill of the Hunt that interact with Kha'Zix that are already in the game. Those MUST stay.
As i mentioned previously, Rengar will keep all of the VO he currently has that opponents can hear in and around Thrill of the Hunt that he has on live. Adding -more- VO as a warning that he has activated his ult to people that can't even see him is something i can't guarantee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaosos View Post
Could tier 3 maybe extend the vision radius? Also, can you use empowered battle roar or empowered bola without breaking ult?
Unlikely to do this -exact- change (Since sight radius increases with rank, and could very easily just be flat but a big number if we wanted to etc), but something around this powerlevel to couple with R duration+ is a good fit.


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dragonstrike45

Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Update time!

So, after some tests, the big changes i've made are pretty close to what i'd like to see in the final version. I'll go through some of the core changes to my current changelist here, the reasoning behind it, and then update the main post with the differences as well. If i don't make mention of a mechanic from Live or from my previous post in these updates, it means they haven't changed.

Bonetooth Necklace
10 AD, 1 AD/Level
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush

6 Stacks: Leap range increased

9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt lasts X seconds longer

14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush


Direction with Bonetooth as i've previously stated is to reduce the 'Stat bonus' focus on Bonetooth, and make it more Rengar-specific and use it as a tool to embrace and enhance Rengar's stalking/hunting gameplay. Feedback on this direction has been going well and people are digging the direction, i'll give my specific feelings about the bonuses.

3 Stacks - Enjoying how this is playing as an early-game reward that enables Rengar's roaming, jungle or otherwise. Live Rengar has the Movement Speed bonus at Tier 2, idea is to move it to Tier 1 and make it less-permanent (Boots of Mobility) while being able retain the Flat MS while chasing targets through brush. Basically, ganking sidelanes and using the brush or fighting in the jungle keep Rengar speedy even if he's flagged as in-combat.

6 Stacks - Really simple. *slightly* nerfed the leap range due to it moving to Tier 2 from Tier 3 and thus more accessible, but hitting this threshold really makes him 'turn on' in terms of midgame power. Liking this.

9 Stacks - Mostly placeholder, but i enjoy the effect. Likely could just add a bonus together with the increased duration to give a fixed power spike that Rengar can rely on for making it this far. Totally agree with any of you that this falls a little short on expectations especially at Tier 3. This is the only one i have less-than-high confidence for as a rewarding effect.

14 Stacks - This...is very powerful. Not only does it synergize with Rengar's 3 stack for out of combat brush darting/chasing, this -also- means that Rengar has access to bonus movement speed after leaping from brush. Haven't gotten to this threshhold except for once, which when combo'd with the updates to Thrill of the Hunt that you'll see below made for some -really- epic hunting experiences. Might tune this up, might slightly change, but this is the type of thing i want to see from Tier 4 Bonetooth.

Battle Roar
-No Longer grants Armor/Magic Resistance
-Enemies hit with Battle Roar have their Attack Damage reduced


If you've read my prior posts, you know my feelings about Battle Roar - specifically that it doesn't especially inform who Rengar should be effective against, and thus just gives up a lump of power that's hard to tune while remaining satisfying. Feedback from this thread also has been consistent that Battle Roar's allure is Rengar imposing his will/intimidating opponents, not I AM LOUD AND TANKIER NOW.

Attack Damage reduction allows him to handle jungle minions pretty well, but also makes him a monster in fights vs champions that rely on basic attacks/physical damage abilities (like carries, or other fighters), while still keeping him vulnerable to magic damage abilities from tanks/mages. Overall, the goal is that if AD reduction can work out you can reach a spot where leaping onto Physical Damage dealers and roaring makes you feel more like you're actively shutting down their damage potential rather than just being beefier than usual. Before you guys start biting my head off about how he won't have the tankiness to survive , i totally see this as an opportunity to introduce better base stats if it shows that he desperately needs the durability.

Bola Strike
-Is now a skillshot
-Increased Range


Wav3break was always pushing for this and i was always pushing against it, but after having played around with it i really, really like it. Making E a skillshot allows the skill to generally have more power (Range, Damage, Effect are all vectors to tune, though i'd rather lean on the first two) - but also gives Rengar the feeling of 'i have an option at all times'. Even when out of brush and in a siege situation, a traditional weakness of Rengar, the ability to harrass or create picks with Bola/Empowered Bola grants him more flexibility. Similarly, playing against feedback has been great (Got first blood with a jungle gank using Empowered E - felt like a boss landing the clutch shot, opponent felt it was much more fair due to being able to dodge).

In general, making Rengar's pattern once he leaps on a target require more play/interplay and less guaranteed allows him to feel much better when he -does- succeed. This change has been trending well, but is something that we'll be watching across future playtests to tune to appropriate power.

And for the big one:
Thrill of the Hunt
-Cooldown decreased
-No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
-Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
-No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
-Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
-Movement Speed increased
-Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.


So, we tried something crazy with the ultimate when concerns came about that the VO/Icon gameplay, while functional, was removing a lot of Rengar's threat because people knew his gameplan. By taking -off- the stealth entirely and just overloading the parts of Rengar's ult that people were appreciating (Ferocity Generation, Insane Mobility, True Vision) and let him have access to it more. Mid and end-game Rengar's spend a majority of their time being predatory in nature, stalking brush and being opportunistic upon chasing down low-health targets post-fights - which is also made easier by giving him movementspeed post-landing, allowing him to execute his Q-train combo/Bola strike without just failing to keep up to his prey. On the other end making Rengar's gank + ult combo reliant on 'brute forcing' a gank ala Hecarim's E or Rammus' Powerball gives your opponent ways to play against it either by seeing them coming on wards and running or by otherwise predicting the gank paths a Rengar may take.

I agree that it sounds big...but the more we've played with it, the more people have realized the Stealth part of Thrill of the Hunt is perhaps the least-appreciated part. You still run insanely fast, you still leap. Removing Stealth also allows us to pull back slightly on some of the damage nerfs we've done to Rengar, as he telegraphs his intent very easily by being an insanely fast rocket cat.

(Bonus Round - To give you an idea of what we're dealing with, Rengar with no Boots, 14 Stack Bonetooth, Rank 3 Thrill of the Hunt and 5 Points of Ferocity can run from the bottom lane brush to the toplane's river brush before the Ultimate's duration times out, as long as you make clever use of all the brush inbetween.

That's with no boots. It's pretty awesome to see.

So, be sure to let me know what y'all think about this version. When Rengar goes to PBE (SoonTM), this is likely very close to the one that i'll throw up for players to mess around with. A lot of your feedback has helped a ton in shaping the versions of Rengar in testing and lot of the conversations we've been having, so don't stop now!
Thanks Scarizard! In my opinion the changes look great. As a Rengar player here are some things I would like clarifications on though:

1) Does the bola strike reveal the target hit? This would be great to allow to get leaps off to jungle monsters in the jungle or to escape in the jungle by hitting a monster and leaping to it over the wall.

2) Does Rengar continue to generate ferocity in his ult after he leaps onto his target? This is something I would like, although at a slower rate if necessary, because it allows continual chase and fighting power during ult (like how Renekton gets when his ult generates fury per second for the entire duration).

Just let me know on these questions. Overall I think the changes look promising, and I can't wait to play the new Rengar!


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Chaosos

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Question: How silly does rengar look while going rocket cat fast?

Also, have you tested at all on Dominion?


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-16-2013
52 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonstrike45 View Post
Thanks Scarizard! In my opinion the changes look great. As a Rengar player here are some things I would like clarifications on though:

1) Does the bola strike reveal the target hit? This would be great to allow to get leaps off to jungle monsters in the jungle or to escape in the jungle by hitting a monster and leaping to it over the wall.

2) Does Rengar continue to generate ferocity in his ult after he leaps onto his target? This is something I would like, although at a slower rate if necessary, because it allows continual chase and fighting power during ult (like how Renekton gets when his ult generates fury per second for the entire duration).

Just let me know on these questions. Overall I think the changes look promising, and I can't wait to play the new Rengar!
1. This is very scary - but has a lot of good feels from a flow perspective. Elise's Cocoon and Syndra's Stun both reveal targets hit so you can more easily follow-up your combos and dashes. It's a change that would have a lot of cool play associated with it, but it's unclear whether or not it's good for the game overall. (this exact situation came up today where i really wanted to leap to the blue buff that i bola'd!) We'll be having a lot of conversations on whether or not we should, but if it's not too disruptive i'd like to!

2. Unlikely that we'd go with this - it doesn't take very much time for him to generate his ferocity while in R, and the duration of it is so long already (12-18s base currently, with the potential to get all the way up to 28 seconds!) that we really want you to relish the feeling of hunting and stalking, since you'll have vision all this time. If you really need to Rocket-boost before your Fury is generated fully, it's likely that it's more important you make it to your target rather than have full ferocity when you get there (it's also more likely you'll still have a few points built up once you get there, so this hasn't been a particular worry).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaosos View Post
Question: How silly does rengar look while going rocket cat fast?

Also, have you tested at all on Dominion?
Not silly at all, in fact. He has a really cool run animation when in his ult that makes him look really cool while booking it.

Haven't tested on Dominion, i'm afraid. We're near the end of the ideation/exploration phases of Rengar, and once we're confident in them will begin balance testing (where a lot of the number tuning takes place). At that time, it's up to our resident ManWolfAxeBoss to decide how he'd like to handle Rengar with concerns to dominion.