A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Zerglinator

Senior Member

08-16-2013

But...can we still get the VO clips? And the Predator vision? Those were the best parts!


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OJFrost

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachi View Post
Oh, removing the icon over enemies when he ults because it takes away the threat?

Please, tell me how this is beneficial to Warwick then.
You can turn off WW's Blood Scent. Most good Warwick players do that...


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8475121562315631

Junior Member

08-16-2013

i LOVE what you guys done with the ult.
but imo this version of the bonetooth nec isn't worth an item slot :P (maybe change the 9 stack ?)
or like at 14 stack he gets like a leap reset on kill like kha ?


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Tachi

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Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by OJFrost View Post
You can turn off WW's Blood Scent. Most good Warwick players do that...
The fact that it has to be turned off is dumb in itself.


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burnedalive

Senior Member

08-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Tachi View Post
The fact that it has to be turned off is dumb in itself.
Why is it dumb? It gives insane chasing for peopel under 50%. Smart use of it and people dunno you're there.


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Call Me Khal

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post

(Bonus Round - To give you an idea of what we're dealing with, Rengar with no Boots, 14 Stack Bonetooth, Rank 3 Thrill of the Hunt and 5 Points of Ferocity can run from the bottom lane brush to the toplane's river brush before the Ultimate's duration times out, as long as you make clever use of all the brush inbetween.
ReNGAR WOT M8


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DEA1201

Member

08-16-2013

Sounds like Rengar will now be able to outrun Rammus with bunch of MS (sounds he's now even more simpler mechanically). I'll be honest, I'm now even more worried about what will my main (probably not anymore, idk) champ become now. Why didn't Xeralth took over this rework?


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-16-2013
50 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CiaphasCainX View Post
Well to be perfectly honest I neither like the bola change or the ult change. I get you guys don't like stealth as a mechanic but i'd rather have had the "They know i'm coming" than losing it. Thrill of the Hunt isn't even going to give him an AD boost or anything while its active? Not going to generate Ferocity anymore?

To be frank its hard to look at these changes as anything but massive nerfs. Movement speed is great and all, but it doesn't mean anything if Rengar can't do the damage he needs to do to be effective. Not to mention that the Bonetooth is about as cost inefficient as anything i've ever seen. Consuming Ferocity on the ult as well seems unnecessary as well, given that is just providing a longer movement speed increase.

I sincerely hope you're at least planning on buffing the **** out of his base stats because without it, I can't see him being effective in any situation.

Edit: For clarity, given that you're referencing Rammus Power Ball (When was the last time anyone saw a Rammus) and Hecarim as an inspiration.. Given that we already HAVE both of those champions, why do you feel the need to introduce that kind of mechanic on another champion?
To your first point, it still generates Ferocity. As i said before, if i didn't mention it changing it stays the same - that's the reason the 'consuming' ferocity on cast part exists to an extent. If you Ult with Rengar at 5 stacks sometimes it feels like you're missing the Ferocity Generation part of the ultimate - so casting R with Ferocity stacks pre-built allows to you 'Empower' it by giving it more duration, and you'll buyback the Ferocity anyways over the next few seconds.

My reference to Rammus/Hecarim may have also been a tad unclear as well - these champions due to their incredible speed make it such that standard ward placement isn't near as effective to prevent ganks as other junglers - Seeing a powerball in your river brush isn't giving you at all the time necessary to react - Rengar's ultimate functions the same way, but gives flexibility to go from different locations due to the Leap associated with it (from behind tower wall is an example of a place Rengar could get to an leap from with relative ease). This wasn't to say that Rengar plays similarly to them or serves the same role, just that they share the same Gank strengths. (say what you will about Hecarim or Rammus's power levels, but you can't deny that ganking is kind of their thing.)

As for seeing them as nerfs, i entirely understand. I'm not posting numbers here so it's hard to really feel the impact the changes will have, especially when so many of them (Bola strike, R) require playing to get the feel of. While i'll continue to iterate internally, i'd like to get this on PBE within the next few patches so that you and others who share your opinion can get a few games on and see if you feel the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
But...can we still get the VO clips? And the Predator vision? Those were the best parts!
Unsure about getting the VO - Predator vision is staying the same as it is on live. In fact, increased duration means you get longer time in Infrared! My comments about removing VO/Icons is referring specifically to the VO/Icons that the Enemy would see when Rengar ulted in my previous iteration, not the ones Rengar himself sees currently on Live..

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBBombBB View Post
Wow I might actually have to play Rengar now because these changes look amazing. And now I feel like he is really different from Kha'Zix. And is the bonetooth necklace 20% increased damage passive a unique one?
At present, it's a unique passive but doesn't share the Maim/Butcher keyword like Wriggles or the Spirit Items, meaning you could very easily double-up on them if you so desired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8475121562315631 View Post
i LOVE what you guys done with th ult.
but imo this version of the bonetooth nec isn't worth an item slot :P (maybe change the 9 stack ?)
or like at 14 stack he gets like a leap reset on kill like kha ?
Effects have been testing positively, would like to tweak the stats so that the item feels appropriately slot-efficient statwise, but not by too much - the vision for Rengar isn't that this item is a 'must-buy' - it's still a risk/reward item, but retuned so that the item itself is appealing to those who want to really embrace and play up Rengar's identity as a hunter.

I'll echo my previous post and say that i'm not super stoked about the Tier 3 as a standalone, but everything else feels really powerful/enabling for Rengar.


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Call Me Khal

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Bonetooth seems less useable now to a lane Rengar, it doesn't give much AD anymore, and that hurts a lane Rengar because he needs to make the purchase worthwhile. It's something I don't see buying on him anymore when I'm laning.

I'm curious to see if any base stat changes come in, I think Rengar will need them dearly if the changes come through as is.


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emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Update time!

So, after some tests, the big changes i've made are pretty close to what i'd like to see in the final version. I'll go through some of the core changes to my current changelist here, the reasoning behind it, and then update the main post with the differences as well. If i don't make mention of a mechanic from Live or from my previous post in these updates, it means they haven't changed.

Bonetooth Necklace
10 AD, 1 AD/Level
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush

6 Stacks: Leap range increased

9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt lasts X seconds longer

14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush


Direction with Bonetooth as i've previously stated is to reduce the 'Stat bonus' focus on Bonetooth, and make it more Rengar-specific and use it as a tool to embrace and enhance Rengar's stalking/hunting gameplay. Feedback on this direction has been going well and people are digging the direction, i'll give my specific feelings about the bonuses.

3 Stacks - Enjoying how this is playing as an early-game reward that enables Rengar's roaming, jungle or otherwise. Live Rengar has the Movement Speed bonus at Tier 2, idea is to move it to Tier 1 and make it less-permanent (Boots of Mobility) while being able retain the Flat MS while chasing targets through brush. Basically, ganking sidelanes and using the brush or fighting in the jungle keep Rengar speedy even if he's flagged as in-combat.

6 Stacks - Really simple. *slightly* nerfed the leap range due to it moving to Tier 2 from Tier 3 and thus more accessible, but hitting this threshold really makes him 'turn on' in terms of midgame power. Liking this.

9 Stacks - Mostly placeholder, but i enjoy the effect. Likely could just add a bonus together with the increased duration to give a fixed power spike that Rengar can rely on for making it this far. Totally agree with any of you that this falls a little short on expectations especially at Tier 3. This is the only one i have less-than-high confidence for as a rewarding effect.

14 Stacks - This...is very powerful. Not only does it synergize with Rengar's 3 stack for out of combat brush darting/chasing, this -also- means that Rengar has access to bonus movement speed after leaping from brush. Haven't gotten to this threshhold except for once, which when combo'd with the updates to Thrill of the Hunt that you'll see below made for some -really- epic hunting experiences. Might tune this up, might slightly change, but this is the type of thing i want to see from Tier 4 Bonetooth.

Battle Roar
-No Longer grants Armor/Magic Resistance
-Enemies hit with Battle Roar have their Attack Damage reduced


If you've read my prior posts, you know my feelings about Battle Roar - specifically that it doesn't especially inform who Rengar should be effective against, and thus just gives up a lump of power that's hard to tune while remaining satisfying. Feedback from this thread also has been consistent that Battle Roar's allure is Rengar imposing his will/intimidating opponents, not I AM LOUD AND TANKIER NOW.

Attack Damage reduction allows him to handle jungle minions pretty well, but also makes him a monster in fights vs champions that rely on basic attacks/physical damage abilities (like carries, or other fighters), while still keeping him vulnerable to magic damage abilities from tanks/mages. Overall, the goal is that if AD reduction can work out you can reach a spot where leaping onto Physical Damage dealers and roaring makes you feel more like you're actively shutting down their damage potential rather than just being beefier than usual. Before you guys start biting my head off about how he won't have the tankiness to survive , i totally see this as an opportunity to introduce better base stats if it shows that he desperately needs the durability.

Bola Strike
-Is now a skillshot
-Increased Range


Wav3break was always pushing for this and i was always pushing against it, but after having played around with it i really, really like it. Making E a skillshot allows the skill to generally have more power (Range, Damage, Effect are all vectors to tune, though i'd rather lean on the first two) - but also gives Rengar the feeling of 'i have an option at all times'. Even when out of brush and in a siege situation, a traditional weakness of Rengar, the ability to harrass or create picks with Bola/Empowered Bola grants him more flexibility. Similarly, playing against feedback has been great (Got first blood with a jungle gank using Empowered E - felt like a boss landing the clutch shot, opponent felt it was much more fair due to being able to dodge).

In general, making Rengar's pattern once he leaps on a target require more play/interplay and less guaranteed allows him to feel much better when he -does- succeed. This change has been trending well, but is something that we'll be watching across future playtests to tune to appropriate power.

And for the big one:
Thrill of the Hunt
-Cooldown decreased
-No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
-Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
-No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
-Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
-Movement Speed increased
-Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.


So, we tried something crazy with the ultimate when concerns came about that the VO/Icon gameplay, while functional, was removing a lot of Rengar's threat because people knew his gameplan. By taking -off- the stealth entirely and just overloading the parts of Rengar's ult that people were appreciating (Ferocity Generation, Insane Mobility, True Vision) and let him have access to it more. Mid and end-game Rengar's spend a majority of their time being predatory in nature, stalking brush and being opportunistic upon chasing down low-health targets post-fights - which is also made easier by giving him movementspeed post-landing, allowing him to execute his Q-train combo/Bola strike without just failing to keep up to his prey. On the other end making Rengar's gank + ult combo reliant on 'brute forcing' a gank ala Hecarim's E or Rammus' Powerball gives your opponent ways to play against it either by seeing them coming on wards and running or by otherwise predicting the gank paths a Rengar may take.

I agree that it sounds big...but the more we've played with it, the more people have realized the Stealth part of Thrill of the Hunt is perhaps the least-appreciated part. You still run insanely fast, you still leap. Removing Stealth also allows us to pull back slightly on some of the damage nerfs we've done to Rengar, as he telegraphs his intent very easily by being an insanely fast rocket cat.

(Bonus Round - To give you an idea of what we're dealing with, Rengar with no Boots, 14 Stack Bonetooth, Rank 3 Thrill of the Hunt and 5 Points of Ferocity can run from the bottom lane brush to the toplane's river brush before the Ultimate's duration times out, as long as you make clever use of all the brush inbetween.

That's with no boots. It's pretty awesome to see.

So, be sure to let me know what y'all think about this version. When Rengar goes to PBE (SoonTM), this is likely very close to the one that i'll throw up for players to mess around with. A lot of your feedback has helped a ton in shaping the versions of Rengar in testing and lot of the conversations we've been having, so don't stop now!
Bonetooth feels bad in like 90% of situations. 28 ad at level 18 for some utility upgrades doesn't seem worth it. E change seems nice.
Between losing tankiness on w, lack of extra damage on empowered q, and no stealth on his ult, how do you expect him to perform in teamfights? He can't get through the front line by force. He can't sneak through the front line. Even if he gets through he can't put enough damage out to instagib them, and for him to have a chance he'll be squishy enough to die to AOE in two seconds. He can't triple q from his ult. AD reductions are not very effective lategame, unless it is a percentage. I feel like this will be new Yi all over again, he will stomp at low elo where no one wards, and splits up and is out of position all the time, but in high Elo where no one goes into an unwarded jungle alone, he just is going to split push, because that's all he can do. And similar to Yi, he will be nerfed until he isn't in any better spot than he was before, except worse now that everyone who played him for stealth gibs won't be able to. Just like Eve, Kat, and soon-to-be Yi, no one will improve their opinion from now and you just spent a ton of resources on a circle that actually lost fans.

Also, fun fact Quinn can ult and beat a TF to bot lane if they start at the same time. This isn't what is strong about Quinn though. Her speed is just one part of the ult. From what it sounds like every bonus rengar gets end as soon as he attacks.

Also, triple Q mechanics, the best time to ult is when you have five stacks of ferocity. Then you empowered q, ult, and then jump on them. This gives you two empowered Qsand a third regular. The change may seem good, but in reality you just said you were ok with keeping Rengar's burst, while nerfing his burst within the same paragraph.