A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Launchpad

Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSIrocin View Post
I am excited to see Ren get some changes! Some ideas I've been playing around with (warning they could be awful):

W- why not give health regen? and then Emp would give even greater health regen, maybe based off missing health?

alt W- not sure how much you want to change up his kit, but I think a battle roar would put prey on edge, maybe slow them or weaken them? Emp could still heal.

Battle Roar just sounds like a buff/debuff skill really.

E-Why not make it a sort of charge up skill? would have decreased speed as he winds it, but would throw it further and slow longer? Right now i don't feel very strong about the bola because I feel like Ren could out run in his bola. I always thought of him more as a skill based hunter rather than gadget based. I feel his headhunter skin is closer to the kind of hunter I imagine he is (wearing more trophies than just warriors armor)

Alt E- I would really an active pounce, or a four legged run. It would help him catch his targets with out relying on tools. (The bush leap is awesome though, so maybe he could just run on four legs during R.)

2nd alt E- if rengar were to use any traps or tools, I feel like he would use a sort of bush trap knocks back(or forward) or ensnares. Emp would just make trap last longer or give more vision.

R- I think the icon/VO telegraph is fine. I think it would add another layer to his ult, instead of it just being a straight killing tool, it could corral enemies, for an early team fight or just to distract them from a push. Say Ren pops ult near bot, everyone rushes to crowd around carry and fight off Ren. Ren milks the time a bit, then runs up top or mid to push.

I forgot where or who mentioned it, but I do like the idea of Rengar marking a favored target after killing or casting on them so many times. I think it would give Rengar some utility for the team (the target receives some kind of debuff or something).

Maybe this is too much, but his R could have him both turn invisible and get a speed buff, as well as mark an enemy as his target. Then, if Rengar kills the target within a certain, his team receives bonus gold. Of course, this could lead to more planning than action (which isn't good when seconds are on the clock). Perhaps if Ren kills an enemy during or right after R, his team gets bonus gold.

BTN- I don't want to get into numbers (as mentioned, they can always be tuned), and these are in no particular order.

#-Standing in bush gives a slight health regen based off how much health is missing

I imagine that a great hunter can lick his wounds, and I think this could promote certain actions. It could open a greater risk/reward option for hanging around enemy jungle, or trying to stay in any jungle to get a kill while on low health (instead of returning to base for full healing) This would also make the jungle like Rengars second home, giving him really fair sustain against other junglers.

#- Tenacity could be nice.

#-slight speed boost, and decay after leaving bush. OR, he could retain invisibility after leaving bush for a very short time (like around 1 second). The short invis after bush would help for positioning, escapes or ganks.

#- could gain up to % attack when he hasn't attacked a champion in a while.

#- Grants an aura that slows enemy champions near him when he is in bush. A large radius with a minor slow, or a very restricted radius with a heavy slow (as this aura would give away his position). This would be after high stacks though, after the enemy has already started to fear Rengar.

Totally crazy idea, would pretty much rework Ren but: What if Rengar needed to hunt? He would gain stacks or bonuses for killing champions (or maybe just for dealing decent damage to them), but if he hasn't attacked a champion in too long he would get crazy stat changes. I am kind of playing with the idea of Thresh's souls here.

He gets some stat increasing stacks for killing enemy champions, but he gets bored if it's the same target. When I think of (some) hunters, I think of that insane need to always go bigger: it was a bear this year so it has to be an elephant next year. In gameplay translation, if Ren keeps killing the same target he will make a remark, and the benefits he would normally get from the kill would be lower and get lower each time he killed the target he had grown bored of. I think this would make sense for Rengar as a hunger, and encourage him to not just pick on the adc the whole game (or a similar scenario)

Going off this need to hunt buff, he could also become Battle Starved after not killing a champion in too long. Being Battle Starved would give a spell shield, increase in attack and speed, but also lower defense or something like that. Basically, he is crazy with lust for battle, so can ignore one piece of CC and gain a good amount of damage, but he would also be at risk in terms of def or health. It's the kind of thrill I could see a predator enjoying.

Sorry if these suggestions were all way off, it's pretty late here and I've been up for too long.

You just seem all over the place but I like your creativity and outside of the box thinking. Especially the idea of becoming bored with killing the same target over and over (keeps him from abusing the stacking ability of BTN)


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Someoneelsewhere

Junior Member

08-16-2013

2 ideas:

What if the roar of Rengar absorbed the stacks on Q to give a heal in addition to the heal from the empowered roar? Or it could give a flat boost to health? What if, instead, the roar gave a flat boost to health based on the number of enemies in sight? or hit by it? All of these would enable Rengar to be in someone's face, disengage easily, and not insta die in team fights, all while controlling burst and Q chain length (read on please, because the idea I have about the Q cd is in the next paragraph, and it works with this idea as well).

Also, what if the Bola Strike was a skill shot that slowed for 2 seconds (sort of like Mundo's), had a 12 sec cd, and enabled Rengar to jump on that target? If you used this, you could then give Q a longer cd, but enable it to be used three times in a row, a la Ahri's or Xerath's R. This would also enable you to make him have the burst to kill someone, much like Ahri, if he burned every cd, but he also would be unable to do much else, much the same as Ahri.

Also, the jump on someone after Bola Strike plan would work as a perk on the BTN, and a very nice one, too. On another note, the Bola Strike becoming a longer cd (12 sec? 20 sec? you guys can balance better than I can) "engage" via long range skill shot would also mean that you would be removing the poke from a melee champion that it does not belong on while giving Lanegar some new tricks. It would also mean that you could control his jungle time due to Q's cd by changing the damage and cd of Battle Roar. You might need to control his jungle time due to the awesome ganks provided by a Bola Strike into Q spam, and the cd on Q would do that nicely. besides, the jump on someone with Bola Strike would give utility that you want for a hunter without the burst of an assassin. Set up, as you guys say, is always favored. Besides, with the Bola as a skill shot, you could increase its damage and make it truly awesome to hit, much like Sejuani's R.

I'm gonna stop now before my post gets too long lol

Anyways, I hope you enjoy these ideas, and I look forward to feedback!
I hope they are not too late for suggestions >.<
Also, Hurray for first forum post?

edit: I love the debuff on his Q that stacks twice, enabling the Q chain. I also love the VO and Icon change you guys have instated on his R. Psychologically speaking, it is perfect, and even if you as a hunter feel like you are revealed, it is the perfect way to show off your arrogance in style.


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Rastamon Ganja

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Hmmm still no update on Rengar even though Riot said Tomorrow...


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rathy Aro

Senior Member

08-16-2013

>bumping this thread without being Scarizard
Stop that.


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8475121562315631

Junior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Someoneelsewhere View Post
2 ideas:

What if the roar of Rengar absorbed the stacks on Q to give a heal in addition to the heal from the empowered roar? Or it could give a flat boost to health? What if, instead, the roar gave a flat boost to health based on the number of enemies in sight? or hit by it? All of these would enable Rengar to be in someone's face, disengage easily, and not insta die in team fights, all while controlling burst and Q chain length (read on please, because the idea I have about the Q cd is in the next paragraph, and it works with this idea as well).

Also, what if the Bola Strike was a skill shot that slowed for 2 seconds (sort of like Mundo's), had a 12 sec cd, and enabled Rengar to jump on that target? If you used this, you could then give Q a longer cd, but enable it to be used three times in a row, a la Ahri's or Xerath's R. This would also enable you to make him have the burst to kill someone, much like Ahri, if he burned every cd, but he also would be unable to do much else, much the same as Ahri.

Also, the jump on someone after Bola Strike plan would work as a perk on the BTN, and a very nice one, too. On another note, the Bola Strike becoming a longer cd (12 sec? 20 sec? you guys can balance better than I can) "engage" via long range skill shot would also mean that you would be removing the poke from a melee champion that it does not belong on while giving Lanegar some new tricks. It would also mean that you could control his jungle time due to Q's cd by changing the damage and cd of Battle Roar. You might need to control his jungle time due to the awesome ganks provided by a Bola Strike into Q spam, and the cd on Q would do that nicely. besides, the jump on someone with Bola Strike would give utility that you want for a hunter without the burst of an assassin. Set up, as you guys say, is always favored. Besides, with the Bola as a skill shot, you could increase its damage and make it truly awesome to hit, much like Sejuani's R.

I'm gonna stop now before my post gets too long lol

Anyways, I hope you enjoy these ideas, and I look forward to feedback!
I hope they are not too late for suggestions >.<
Also, Hurray for first forum post?

edit: I love the debuff on his Q that stacks twice, enabling the Q chain. I also love the VO and Icon change you guys have instated on his R. Psychologically speaking, it is perfect, and even if you as a hunter feel like you are revealed, it is the perfect way to show off your arrogance in style.
i really like the bola strike- jump idea. i hope that they see your post and consider trying it.


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ScubaDivingPoop

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Just played a team where everyone either had GA or Zonya and their support and tank had GA at all times. Cant wait for there to be more counter play to Rengar.


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calumniateTruth

Junior Member

08-16-2013

So, if I understand, on a champion that has no good way of sticking to his targets at all, you are reducing his burst and replacing it with AS? That will be very useful for the two attacks you will get in before they just walk away.


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calumniateTruth

Junior Member

08-16-2013

Also, many people may like the ult changes but as Rengar has no escape apart from his ult, he will be terrible at ganking with it unless they enemy are already way over extended (A situation in which all other junglers would just have to walk into lane for a good gank. Also, his late game team fight potential just falls apart as a result. Before the change, in a team fight you could pick off an out of position carry and kill them right away with your combo unless they suspected it and placed a pink ward, this is what people complained about so much. These same people fail to recognise that Rengar has no natural escape and unless he is played well then he will just die as the result of his play.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

08-16-2013
49 of 81 Riot Posts

Update time!

So, after some tests, the big changes i've made are pretty close to what i'd like to see in the final version. I'll go through some of the core changes to my current changelist here, the reasoning behind it, and then update the main post with the differences as well. If i don't make mention of a mechanic from Live or from my previous post in these updates, it means they haven't changed.

Bonetooth Necklace
10 AD, 1 AD/Level
Recipe: Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g
PASSIVE: 20% Increased damage to monsters

3 Stacks: Rengar gains Flat Movement Speed while out of combat, or while in brush

6 Stacks: Leap range increased

9 Stacks: Thrill of the Hunt lasts X seconds longer

14 Stacks: Rengar gains % Movement speed for 2.5 seconds upon exiting brush


Direction with Bonetooth as i've previously stated is to reduce the 'Stat bonus' focus on Bonetooth, and make it more Rengar-specific and use it as a tool to embrace and enhance Rengar's stalking/hunting gameplay. Feedback on this direction has been going well and people are digging the direction, i'll give my specific feelings about the bonuses.

3 Stacks - Enjoying how this is playing as an early-game reward that enables Rengar's roaming, jungle or otherwise. Live Rengar has the Movement Speed bonus at Tier 2, idea is to move it to Tier 1 and make it less-permanent (Boots of Mobility) while being able retain the Flat MS while chasing targets through brush. Basically, ganking sidelanes and using the brush or fighting in the jungle keep Rengar speedy even if he's flagged as in-combat.

6 Stacks - Really simple. *slightly* nerfed the leap range due to it moving to Tier 2 from Tier 3 and thus more accessible, but hitting this threshold really makes him 'turn on' in terms of midgame power. Liking this.

9 Stacks - Mostly placeholder, but i enjoy the effect. Likely could just add a bonus together with the increased duration to give a fixed power spike that Rengar can rely on for making it this far. Totally agree with any of you that this falls a little short on expectations especially at Tier 3. This is the only one i have less-than-high confidence for as a rewarding effect.

14 Stacks - This...is very powerful. Not only does it synergize with Rengar's 3 stack for out of combat brush darting/chasing, this -also- means that Rengar has access to bonus movement speed after leaping from brush. Haven't gotten to this threshhold except for once, which when combo'd with the updates to Thrill of the Hunt that you'll see below made for some -really- epic hunting experiences. Might tune this up, might slightly change, but this is the type of thing i want to see from Tier 4 Bonetooth.

Battle Roar
-No Longer grants Armor/Magic Resistance
-Enemies hit with Battle Roar have their Attack Damage reduced


If you've read my prior posts, you know my feelings about Battle Roar - specifically that it doesn't especially inform who Rengar should be effective against, and thus just gives up a lump of power that's hard to tune while remaining satisfying. Feedback from this thread also has been consistent that Battle Roar's allure is Rengar imposing his will/intimidating opponents, not I AM LOUD AND TANKIER NOW.

Attack Damage reduction allows him to handle jungle minions pretty well, but also makes him a monster in fights vs champions that rely on basic attacks/physical damage abilities (like carries, or other fighters), while still keeping him vulnerable to magic damage abilities from tanks/mages. Overall, the goal is that if AD reduction can work out you can reach a spot where leaping onto Physical Damage dealers and roaring makes you feel more like you're actively shutting down their damage potential rather than just being beefier than usual. Before you guys start biting my head off about how he won't have the tankiness to survive , i totally see this as an opportunity to introduce better base stats if it shows that he desperately needs the durability.

Bola Strike
-Is now a skillshot
-Increased Range


Wav3break was always pushing for this and i was always pushing against it, but after having played around with it i really, really like it. Making E a skillshot allows the skill to generally have more power (Range, Damage, Effect are all vectors to tune, though i'd rather lean on the first two) - but also gives Rengar the feeling of 'i have an option at all times'. Even when out of brush and in a siege situation, a traditional weakness of Rengar, the ability to harrass or create picks with Bola/Empowered Bola grants him more flexibility. Similarly, playing against feedback has been great (Got first blood with a jungle gank using Empowered E - felt like a boss landing the clutch shot, opponent felt it was much more fair due to being able to dodge).

In general, making Rengar's pattern once he leaps on a target require more play/interplay and less guaranteed allows him to feel much better when he -does- succeed. This change has been trending well, but is something that we'll be watching across future playtests to tune to appropriate power.

And for the big one:
Thrill of the Hunt
-Cooldown decreased
-No longer plays Voice Over or gives an Icon to enemies within Rengar's sight/detection range
-Consumes current Ferocity on cast - each point of Ferocity consumed increases the Duration of Thrill of the Hunt by 1 second.
-No longer stealths Rengar for the duration
-Duration greatly increased, scales with ult rank
-Movement Speed increased
-Rengar's first basic attack while in Thrill of the Hunt will cause him to leap at his target - Rengar retains the Movement Speed increase from Thrill of the Hunt for 3 seconds after leaping.


So, we tried something crazy with the ultimate when concerns came about that the VO/Icon gameplay, while functional, was removing a lot of Rengar's threat because people knew his gameplan. By taking -off- the stealth entirely and just overloading the parts of Rengar's ult that people were appreciating (Ferocity Generation, Insane Mobility, True Vision) and let him have access to it more. Mid and end-game Rengar's spend a majority of their time being predatory in nature, stalking brush and being opportunistic upon chasing down low-health targets post-fights - which is also made easier by giving him movementspeed post-landing, allowing him to execute his Q-train combo/Bola strike without just failing to keep up to his prey. On the other end making Rengar's gank + ult combo reliant on 'brute forcing' a gank ala Hecarim's E or Rammus' Powerball gives your opponent ways to play against it either by seeing them coming on wards and running or by otherwise predicting the gank paths a Rengar may take.

I agree that it sounds big...but the more we've played with it, the more people have realized the Stealth part of Thrill of the Hunt is perhaps the least-appreciated part. You still run insanely fast, you still leap. Removing Stealth also allows us to pull back slightly on some of the damage nerfs we've done to Rengar, as he telegraphs his intent very easily by being an insanely fast rocket cat.

(Bonus Round - To give you an idea of what we're dealing with, Rengar with no Boots, 14 Stack Bonetooth, Rank 3 Thrill of the Hunt and 5 Points of Ferocity can run from the bottom lane brush to the toplane's river brush before the Ultimate's duration times out, as long as you make clever use of all the brush inbetween.

That's with no boots. It's pretty awesome to see.

So, be sure to let me know what y'all think about this version. When Rengar goes to PBE (SoonTM), this is likely very close to the one that i'll throw up for players to mess around with. A lot of your feedback has helped a ton in shaping the versions of Rengar in testing and lot of the conversations we've been having, so don't stop now!


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Mr Rust

Junior Member

08-16-2013

Im excited. Hopefully these changes make him fresh and not have to rely on his ult to fight endgame.