Skarner, I miss your kind

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Lowel

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Senior Member

08-15-2013

I really liked the permaslow on Skarner's Q.

There's no champions that need you to spam Q to stick to the target. They were a lot of counter play with that : escape ability, knock back, slow. To start his 'permaslow' he needed his MS buff to reach his target (was in long CD, so he didn't have it after reached the target) and he needed to land at least 1 Q, 1 AA and an other Q.

With this ability he could run in the enemy team and slow them all, chase down enemy. To counter this, just use any CC.

If we look at other champions, like bot lane : Tristana x2, Corki x1, Ez x1, Vayne x2, Graves x1, Twitch (x1 stealth), Sivir (x1 shield can block 1 Q), Draven x1, Varus x1.
All those ADC have at least 1 ability that could help them escape : slow, konck back, escape ability, stealth. Did you try ganking a lane where they had some sort of CC ?

So his Q had already a lot of counterplay.
Look at Volibear : MS buff, Kockback, slow, high damage early.
Look at Udyr : MS buff on 5 sec CD, a stun at 6 sec CD.


His E need a rework, but I don't like the idea having the slow here.


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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

08-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
It's actually .25 seconds. Almost all abilities in Lol with cast times have a .25 second cast time. Removing the cast time would be nice.

Yeah i knew my math was off there, thanks for correcting me


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Majin Bl3u

Senior Member

08-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForForumSake View Post
If the marked enemy is impaled, the impale time increases to, let’s say 2 sec, and the enemies touched by the impaled enemy are knocked away (or briefly stunned or getting more damage from allies or just getting damage ect) Even more fun with dragging although I don’t know if it would be an effective mechanic.
Either way if it tweaks R it would be useful even for junglers. Still would be effective even at lv 1. And you can still lane, with less problems.
I think this idea is really interesting. I strongly feel that if we are removing skarners perma slow and adding it to his E like scruffy propsed, we should bring back E's "mark"ing mechanic.

Having the mark extend the utility of the ult would be cool. I also suggested that the mark inflict Terror when proc'ed.

Or even just having the mark increase incoming damage like vlad's ult would be nice. Just SOMETHING extra

As said before the new kit doesn't do enough to positively impact skarner's presence. Its mostly just a rearrangement that doesn't feel very impactful.


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Dalthine

Junior Member

08-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
If we are arguing on kits alone, I can still differentiate him significantly from Zac. ... Their kits and their playstyles are significantly more different than they are similar.
Mostly, I'm looking at what each ability is used for.

Skarner's Q and Zac's W are both to do a small amount of AoE damage, good for sitting in the middle of an enemy team and using frequently to do damage. Skarner can use his about twice as frequently but that's not a huge difference, and as I said the AS bonus boils down to being able to actually stick to an enemy to deal consecutive strikes, which is not always easy when enemies have lots of ways to escape, whether they're squishies or not. Everyone has at least flash, and even most of the remaining bruisers and brawlers have some way to get out of a fight they know they'd die from. And if they wouldn't die they can just walk away.

Skarner's W and Zac's E are both for initiation, chasing down an enemy, or is their own escape. In these respects, neglecting the shield, Zac's is superior in that it is completely unaffected by soft CC (slows) where Skarner is still kiteable and has to close with his enemy. Another very important thing to look at here is that if Skarner's shield is broken he loses his speed altogether, and without his slow that is his entire capacity to stick to a fleeing enemy, or get away from a chasing one.

For Skarner's E and Zac's Q, I feel that it barely needs to be touched on since they do the same thing, but I will anyway. You don't use this ability for damage unless you just want to harass at range, in which case most champs can do it better in top lane, and jungle doesn't need it. And your claim of a lower cooldown is false, with current values. Fracture has a static cooldown of 10s, and Stretching Strike is 9/8.5/8/7.5/7. Even at one point in each, Zac winds up with more uptime despite a .5s greater duration on Skarner's slow because he makes of 1s in cooldown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
If your argument is that Zac can chase an enemy as well as Skarner can, then I have to disagree. Zac has a gapcloser and a slow, but he has no follow-up. ...
Step back from Zac at this point. I didn't mention that Zac could chase down better, that champion is just the most direct comparison to his kit. Skarner has better chasing potential than Zac, but his kit is overall weaker in exchange for that. In either case, he can't chase down nearly as effectively as he could previously, because as I mentioned his slow will have 7.5s of downtime (without CDR), and his shield can be broken to strip his movespeed boost. In either case, as others can attest a movespeed boost is not nearly as useful as a slow, because it only helps you catch the target, not your team, and also doesn't prevent the enemy from fleeing to safety.

Even going back to Zac, though he's not the best example, he has more slow uptime, the Slingshot to catch up if the enemy starts to escape before his next slow up (positing that he would not use Slingshot unless Skarner would use his shield), and when he has neither he can just run next to his enemy and spam W for damage. This is more or less the same thing Skarner would do, except he can risk autos for the chance of his enemy pulling away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Also, builds do matter. ...
Intention does not make it always the best situation. On release, Lulu was intended always to be a support, but she was so good at top lane that she was able to dominate it and required emergency nerfs to bring her in line. She was able to harass extremely well, do lots of damage, and chase an enemy down for kills. She still does this as a support, but the numbers were tuned to bring her in line with a support role. A kit determines what a champ does and who they are. Numbers are the only thing relegating two champs with similar kits to a role or playstyle, and to me this does not feel like enough of a distinction to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
I maintain that if you look at the numerous differences in their kits, and the fact that they have completely different roles in almost all stages of the game, that claim should be seen as false. The functions they fill for teams are just too different for them to be seen as interchangeable.
And I maintain my position as well. In lane there are differences, because Skarner wants to stay in someone's face while Zac wants to avoid fights and harass/sustain until his jungler can come for a kill. In the jungle, Zac's ganks are better due to slingshot initiation, whereas Skarner has to get close enough to an enemy to Impale. In teamfights, both are frontline distractions, partially for their CC and partially to do damage. Zac goes full tank yes, but if Skarner isn't somewhat tanky himself he'll just pop, and he has to close into melee range before he can start doing his damage.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-15-2013

[QUOTE=Dalthine;40737869]Mostly, I'm looking at what each ability is used for... (And I'm leaving the rest out because of length.)/QUOTE]

Before anything else:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalthine View Post
...his slow will have 7.5s of downtime (without CDR)
This is just false. Your argument assumes that Skarner will be unable to land even a single autoattack on his opponents. If he makes any use of his passive, than Skarner will maintain a significantly higher uptime on his slow than Zac will, particularly once he gets CDR. With max CDR and an attack speed of 1.0 (something he will surpass very easily off of his attack speed steroid alone), he'll have a slow with a 2.5 second duration on a 3.0 second cooldown. Any more attack speed than that, and it's permaslow all over again. Even without CDR, it will have an effective cooldown of about 6 seconds with autoattacks. Worth keeping in mind when making that comparison.

I think you just ignore too many things. You talk about ganking in the jungle, which Zac is better at, but you don't talk about counterjungling, counterganking, or hunting down enemy junglers, all of which Skarner is much better at due to his due to the fact that his damage and his tankiness against limited enemies are much higher than Zac's are. This allows him to bully enemies out of their own jungles because even if Skarner can't always catch them, he can always drive them away from objectives because fighting him if he's on equal footing to you is a mistake. One of the big reasons he can do that is the shield on his W (something you choose to ignore in your analysis, since you choose to only value the movement speed). Zac can't do that. That is a huge difference in playstyle that you don't address at all. Likewise, for the later game, Zac will be better at initiating fights, but Skarner is far, far superior in the role of follow-up and peeling for carries because his slow is stronger with a shorter effective cooldown, he has more damage, and he can disrupt assassins far better and more consistently over the course of prolonged fights. Again, this is something you haven't mentioned at all. You only compare based on Zac's strengths.

Additionally, you do have to consider builds. Numbers can change, but if they look even remotely similar to what they are now (and we have no reason to believe they won't), then we can make accurate predictions about what his kit will look like, and in the current form, his kit is significantly more favorable to building damage than Zac's is. That does impact his role. The fact that the specific numbers might change in the future doesn't mean we can't discuss what they are now and what they will almost certainly be when the kit was released. It is theoretically possible that they could take Veigar's AP ratios and nerf them to half what they currently are, but that possibility doesn't stop us from talking about how he has really good AP scaling right now. Likewise, we can see numbers for Skarner's current kit, and since there is no evidence that those will be significantly decreased, we can use them as a point of determing his builds, which do determine what role the champion pursues. He's currently a bruiser, the evidence points to his rework keeping him as a bruiser, we can talk about him in the context of him being a bruiser.

The reason the build thing is important to me is because you keep talking about Skarner in the context of an initiation-tank, which is a role he only plays if he chooses to build no damage, which is generally a large mistake on Skarner. You haven't addressed how he fits into a more damage-oriented bruiser role, with the advantages in early skirmishing and objective control that provides.

I can't take your argument seriously because your comparisons are based on valuing ganking and initiating teamfights over all else. Even when Skarner was a tier 1 jungler, these were things that he did very poorly. He will continue to be somewhat poor at them after the changes.

You can dislike the changes. You can dislike how they're reducing the slow potential, and maybe you think the extra early fighting power and the pre-6 ganking they're giving him isn't enough to make up for it. I get that. I can understand that, and I agree with some of it. However, the comparisons to Zac I simply find... well ridiculous, because Zac's entire role in the game is just so different. His playstyle and job are nothing like Skarner's. I'd compare Skarner to Udyr or Shyvana or Hecarim or even Darius or Vi before I compared him to Zac. He at least shares similarities in his role with them. While his proposed Q and E resemble Zac in mechanics, their functions in the place of the rest of his kit, along with his role in the game overall, resembles these champions more than they do Zac.

So, to make it clear what I would say instead: Zac is a better jungler than Skarner right now, but it isn't because he's a better Skarner. It because Zac is very good at his own niche. Skarner has an entirely different niche as a jungler, but he is an inferior jungler because the roles that he tries to fill are filled better by other options (Hecarim, Vi and Udyr would be the champions I'd call his most direct and superior competitors). Zac may share some mechanical similarities with Skarner, but the complete separation in role, function and playstyle means that they can not do the same jobs on a team, and therefore aren't in direct competition. Zac isn't a better Skarner because he can't do Skarner's job. Hecarim, Vi and Udyr can. Right now, they are the better Skarners.


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dr0pout

Recruiter

08-15-2013

am I really the only one who thinks skarner is just fine the way he is?


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Best Glitches NA

Member

08-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by soybeanpaste View Post
am I really the only one who thinks skarner is just fine the way he is?
Skarner suffers from power creep, which means he's gradually become weaker as more content (in this case more / better junglers) have become available. Some things Riot acknowledged are strengthening his dueling, his shield strength, and his control of the battlefield, but while the two former were addressed, the latter still lingers as unresolved.

In order to justify a "permaslow" removal to a slow cc to E, there needs to be, in my opinion, multiple methods of application. His original design was based around the philosophy of "a tanky melee fighter who excels at controlling the battlefield" and reducing it down to just the single suppress and single slow on E (sure, multiple enemies may be affected) he hardly has the "control he once had, unless the cooldown on the new E is much lower to compensate. I'd still like to fight for a literal control of the battlefield with a unique mechanic introduced (see previous posts for details).

I like the approach of shifting some of his kit around, but in some regards so far it hasn't felt healthy.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by soybeanpaste View Post
am I really the only one who thinks skarner is just fine the way he is?
His kit concept may be fine. Skarner isn't. He's weak compared to other options. There are various reasons why he has become weak (direct nerfs, indirect nerfs in the form of itemization nerfs and jungle changes, the buffing of other champions that compete for his role, etc), but he's just not a very strong champion right now.

One of his biggest problems is that he has all of his steroids tied to a shield, and if that shield gets broken, he loses a lot of potential tankiness and damage because it means he has longer cooldowns for the rest of his abilities. With the high cost of resistances, a Skarner that gets behind is a Skarner that becomes much weaker than other champions do when behind. Giving him some guaranteed power is necessary.

As it stands, the rework is keeping most of Skarner's gameplay intact while buffing him. The main issue to be potentially concerned about is how the new E will interact with his guaranteed attack speed steroid, and what chasing potential it gives him. It may be that it provides almost all of the utility of permaslow while having the advantage of being ranged, or it may be that it just doesn't fill the job well enough and it will leave him unable to catch enemies. Hard to say yet. It's what we're all waiting for information or follow-up about.


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The Champion

Junior Member

08-16-2013

Any news from Scruffy?


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KrimsonKnight

Junior Member

08-16-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
His speed buff, allowing you to rush in and grab their carry, and utility when it comes to things like mana cost and CD of his abilities making building items like "Manamune" or the "Archangel's Staff".

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
the short range of his E, it does little to no damage late game, can be easily kited and the range of his ulti fills slightly to small

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
when playing a squishy champ knowing you could be his next target of his ulti, but you know thats Skarner's job in team fights to separate the carry from their team and pull him/her to his allies

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
well Thresh seeing as he can pull at a longer range, he has a stronger shield that he can put on his allies and is more viable in team fights because of that, can play the role of tank better then Skarner (my opinion)

But in the end Skarner was my first champ and i've learned to cope with his downsides (love you Skar Skar XD lol)