Skarner, I miss your kind

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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalthine View Post
I'm not sure if this has been said before, but I want to put this out there anyway. Thinking about the new kit, there are some aspects of it that definitely bug me. (...No pun intended.)

@RiotScruffy, I appreciate that you're trying to bring Skarner back, but I urge you to look at his kit in its current iteration and think about how it compares to kits that already exist. Namely, Zac. Zac's kit is arguably much the same thing as the current iteration of Skarner, and better in many ways. See below for direct comparisons:

Skarner's Crystal Slash (Q) = Zac's Unstable Matter (W)
Area damage, and Zac's scales with AP while Skarner's is AD. While it's good that Skarner can build AD to benefit from both the damage and the attackspeed, the rest of his kit is AP and therefore doesn't benefit from the AD aspect. If he goes full tank, Zac will do more damage overall due to %HP as its damage. Further, autoattack oriented champions, at least melee ones, don't seem to be doing too well in the game at present overall.

Skarner's Crystalline Exoskeleton (W) = Zac's Elastic Slingshot (E)
Skarner gets a movespeed boost and a shield, which while is admittedly good, doesn't actually help him engage on squishies a great deal. Regardless of the movespeed boost, he is still going to have to run at them and is therefore vulnerable to slows, kiting, and the target just dashing away. Zac is meanwhile able to leap on the enemy from outside of visual range, be on top of them before they can react, and immediately apply hard CC when he hits.

Skarner's Fracture (E) = Zac's Stretching Strike (Q)
Line slow. Zac's is still much wider than even Skarner's original width of his strike, and isn't much shorter in range. The slow on Zac's isn't as powerful as what you're proposing, but I don't see that as a huge difference in the end.

Again, I'm not saying this to try to put you down, but you need to look at some way to make Skarner comparable to the newer champs that do his job better, and unique in his own way. Even with all of the changes you're proposing, it still feels like the ult is the only thing to pick Skarner for, and he's still just as vulnerable to kiting in that aspect as ever, especially when almost all of the squishies being played have some form of escape mechanism.

Like I said though, I appreciate what you're doing in trying to bring older champs back and bring them up to snuff, and I hope this helps your thought process. I'm looking forward to being able to see Skarner again, as I'm always a fan of the more monstrous champions.

TL;DR: Zac is a better Skarner than this current Skarner.
I don't think you're making a fair analysis. You're comparing a full-tank initiator Skarner to Zac. That's a bad build and playstyle for Skarner. It's like if I compared a full-AP Zac to a Karthus in terms of AOE damage carry potential. I'd find Zac wanting, but it's because I haven't analyzed Zac in the role he's actually good at. Likewise, if you analyze Skarner from a full-tank initiator standpoint, you'll find him wanting compared to most other junglers. He is not good at it, and even back when he was a tier 1 jungler, he wasn't relied upon to be an initiator. You have to analyze from the point of view of a tanky dps bruiser.

Take Skarner's Q: It scales significantly better with damage than Zac's W does, and it is much stronger early. Skarner can outduel and hunt people down with this. He can murder carries with this. He can make people miserable in their own jungles. Zac can't. Also, this does scale with AP. It has a perfectly fine DPS due to the low cooldown.

Take Skarner's W: It doesn't work great as initiation, but it will help you win a fight much, much better than Zac's Slingshot ever will. It lets Skarner win skirmishes. Skarner can outfight most other melee champions with his shield, and he can dominate engagements with limited numbers of champions. Zac doesn't have that ability, and instead thrives on teamfights and ganking. Whereas as Skarner likes to create skirmishes, Zac likes to avoid them and create teamfights instead.

Skarner's E has better damage scaling and base damage than Zac's Q, and a lower cooldown (if you're fighting, and assuming it retains current values). It allows him to do more damage, even if it doesn't give him the initiation power that the rest of Zac's kit gives him.

Skarner and Zac have very different roles. If you're trying to play Skarner in a way where Zac would be better than him, then you are playing Skarner in a very non-ideal way. Skarner can't build full-tank, has to have some damage, and is not a good initiator (although he punishes poor positioning and does ambushes very well). In exchange, he does exceptionally well in smaller fights and can chase people almost indefinitely while doing good amounts of damage. Zac doesn't do well building damage, he initiates fights instead of doing the damage to finish them, he can build full-tank easily, and he loves big teamfights instead of 1v1s or 2v2s. They are different. Zac is not a better Skarner unless you are playing Skarner in a role he does not excel in.

All that needs to be done is making Skarner better at the role he does excel in. We don't need to make him a wonderful initiator or the best full-tank in the game. We just have to make sure he is actually good at being a chasing tanky-dps bruiser-tank, which he hasn't been since the Season 3 changes.


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YoshisToadies

Senior Member

08-14-2013

Make his ult have two parts - 1st cast makes you 50% faster for 1.5 seconds and be unable to be cc'd for the duration, and the second part grabs and ends the 1st part. If the enemy grabbed takes more that 50% of their current hp as damage they are released. Also his e is just... pathetic... The healing is basically useless when you are a tank anyway, not to mention the diminishing returns. Higher base damage and an ad ratio would make it way more fun to use.


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dunku

Senior Member

08-14-2013

Got excited about Skarner after reading this thread, and decided to play a normal game with him. He still owns

http://puu.sh/42mTP.png


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Dalthine

Junior Member

08-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
I don't think you're making a fair analysis... (trimmed for length)

All I'm looking at is kits. Damage is all well and good, but utility means just as much if not more. Zac can be built as an AP bruiser, squishier and meant to do more damage, same as Skarner can be built full tank. I've seen both builds on either champ, and each one has its own optimal situation. But it is the kits that make a champion what they are.

Your argument is that Skarner can easily win a 1v1 and stick to his enemy, but if someone would lose a fight with Skarner, then they simply don't have to fight it. He is still a melee champ in almost every way, and has to close to his enemy to do that. Without his permaslow Q, his strongest sticking tool before, it seems like he would have a problem doing that post-rework, especially with all of the escape tools at the disposal of his potential victims.

I'm not saying he'd be bad at chasing down an enemy. I'm saying other, more recent champs can do the same thing better.

And now I need to get in bed. Work tomorrow. I will try to check this thread when I get in.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalthine View Post
All I'm looking at is kits. Damage is all well and good, but utility means just as much if not more. Zac can be built as an AP bruiser, squishier and meant to do more damage, same as Skarner can be built full tank. I've seen both builds on either champ, and each one has its own optimal situation. But it is the kits that make a champion what they are.

Your argument is that Skarner can easily win a 1v1 and stick to his enemy, but if someone would lose a fight with Skarner, then they simply don't have to fight it. He is still a melee champ in almost every way, and has to close to his enemy to do that. Without his permaslow Q, his strongest sticking tool before, it seems like he would have a problem doing that post-rework, especially with all of the escape tools at the disposal of his potential victims.

I'm not saying he'd be bad at chasing down an enemy. I'm saying other, more recent champs can do the same thing better.

And now I need to get in bed. Work tomorrow. I will try to check this thread when I get in.
If we are arguing on kits alone, I can still differentiate him significantly from Zac. Skarner has an attack speed steroid, a movement speed steroid, a shield, a strong single-target disable, and higher damage scaling along with more early damage. Zac has a long distance but low damage initiation, a large aoe CC, and damage that is low early, scales relatively poorly with items, but is significant late game without building damage The only elements that I can find comparable are the line slow and the aoe damage, but even those maintain different use cases when the rest of their kit is taken into consideration. I also think that you only compared part of their roles. You compared them on their potential for engaging on squishies, and on damage potential when built full tank, which are both things that Zac excels at and Skarner is weak at. However, you did not address any of Skarner's strengths, and I feel that your analysis is incomplete without acknowledging Skarner's brawling potential, skirmish fighting ability, and potential as a bruiser, which are all things he does decidedly better than Zac can. Their kits and their playstyles are significantly more different than they are similar.

"I'm not saying he'd be bad at chasing down an enemy. I'm saying other, more recent champs can do the same thing better."

If your argument is that Zac can chase an enemy as well as Skarner can, then I have to disagree. Zac has a gapcloser and a slow, but he has no follow-up. Skarner not only has a slow on a lower effective cooldown with his autos, but he also has movement speed. Additionally, remember that with CDR and autos, Skarner can maintain a very large uptime on his slow, and he can buffer the downtime with the movement speed from his shield. I can say that based on kits, Skarner maintains significant superiority over Zac in this area.

Also, builds do matter. Zac is most efficient building full-tank in the majority of situations, and Skarner needs to build damage in the majority of situations. The efficiency of builds does matter in how characters function, and it is their kits that determine what builds will be efficient on them. Looking at builds is not necessary to see huge distinctions between Zac and Skarner, but looking at them does make the distinctions even more obvious.

You claimed that Zac was a better Skarner. I maintain that if you look at the numerous differences in their kits, and the fact that they have completely different roles in almost all stages of the game, that claim should be seen as false. The functions they fill for teams are just too different for them to be seen as interchangeable.


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Irish Red Cap

Senior Member

08-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey all, back with some more details. We're trying out an iteration of the E that is a bit more like the old E in usage but there are some other changes that help it fit nicely into his new gameplay pattern.

-It is now a free cased line nuke like the E in game currently
-The range is increased by about 20%
-The width of the projectile is decreased by about 20%
-Deals magic damage to targets hit and now slows them for 30/35/40/45/50 for 2.5s

The goals here were to retain the fun and diverse gameplay of the line nuke. The free targeting and skillshot feel of the E is a nice change of pace from Skarner's other melee focused abilities. We're also trying a longer/slow/less wide projectile so that targets of the E have the opportunity to dodge it (counterplay).

After reading through the comments Scruffy I think this one kinda feels closest to what I am concerned about.

I'm not sure if I'm just confusing myself while I'm tired but I was wondering if one of the biggest inherent problems with Skarner's E has been dealt with? The issue at hand is the animation used during his E cast.

Being a champion that requires being in melee range one of the biggest pitfalls of the current E (pre-change) is that when you cast it, Skarner's model will stand still, cast the spell in a line, then have to move again. My math is probably wrong but it takes what seems to be .5-.75~ seconds to actually use the ability which means you are standing still in that time.

With the slow being moved to his E does this mean the cast time will be smoothed out so that you could cast it while mid-run without people getting those extra 2-3 steps that give them enough room to escape even if slowed?


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Sightless66

Senior Member

08-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Red Cap View Post
My math is probably wrong but it takes what seems to be .5-.75~ seconds to actually use the ability which means you are standing still in that time.
It's actually .25 seconds. Almost all abilities in Lol with cast times have a .25 second cast time. Removing the cast time would be nice.


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The Champion

Junior Member

08-15-2013

Bumb for skarner!


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Protonhunter

Senior Member

08-15-2013

Update us plz Skruff. Could you give us a very loose time frame?


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ForForumSake

Junior Member

08-15-2013

Iím not really sure if the changes proposed by Skruffy will help Skarner see much more picks. All the changes feel like they donít have enough of the positive impact on his pressence in the game. Imo you should aim to increase his usefullnes to the team more, all while keeping his style .

From my point of view the unique traits of Skarner are:

-hybrid damage (if you compare similar skills: Hecaís Q is pure AD and Zacís W is pure AP)
-permaslow (although ashe has it ranged and other champs can slow you down the aoe perma slow is still unique)
-ultimate (fun fun fun! )

Old skills:

Q- good skill but leaves you mana hungry fast. The damage is ok, and the slow is neccessary since he has no gap closer and is a jungler. Personaly I see no problems with it.. Moving a AS buff from W here would buff his jungle a bit I guess and have it more secured.
If I were to tweak it I would increase base AP dmg to be on par with base AD dmg. Also could use something like "The first slow applied on champion is doubled for 1 sec, effect can occur every 60s" in order to have better pre 6 ganks? Or someting other to help him.

W- Shield provides good defence as well as key buffs. You need AS for CDR an MS for ganking and ulti. With that being said itís really sad that in late game it can be so easly broken thus your buffs are completly removed. If you lane and are suprised by a gank early and they strip your shield you have no means of escape.
In order to be useful in team fights or more useful overall W should give bonusses for fixed amount of time regardles of shield being broken or not. Or the shield could give him a CC reduction while being active. That way even if it lasts 2 sec it would still be usefull. Either way MS buff is more important to him mid/late game than AS buff if you ask me, so just having AS buff moved elsewhere and tweaking shield is too less imo.

E- Itís good skill. But itís a good lane skill. Itís useless in teamfights and jungle due to cost. Cannot be cast while moving and having a really small range + mana costs means itís not really viable outside lanes.
I think you can have it nearly the same way it was, giving it the option to be cast while moving. In addition add mana regern besides the heal when the mark is consumed. That way you can incease E usefullnes by a lot and solve mana problems, which are a huge deal for Skarner, jungle or lane. I was thinking about a more unique interaction with the Eís mark, which would would increase Skarners usefullnes. Could be some interaction with his R to increase his presence in game. For example:

If the marked enemy is impaled, the impale time increases to, letís say 2 sec, and the enemies touched by the impaled enemy are knocked away (or briefly stunned or getting more damage from allies or just getting damage ect) Even more fun with dragging although I donít know if it would be an effective mechanic.
Either way if it tweaks R it would be useful even for junglers. Still would be effective even at lv 1. And you can still lane, with less problems.

R- One of the best single target skills in game Still it has super low range meaning that in team fights you must wait for favorable enemy positioning, flash, pop up your shield and pray to not be CCíd much . Shield will be down in 2 sec and so goes your MS buff. You wasted your flash, Itís win or die. Heca /Zac/Nautilius do not have such problem with ult. And their ult can disrupt the whole enemy team. Thus the interactions with E.

The problem with him having to use more skills to gank is that every skill point is precious for him. Also the E/Q rework doesn't feel that more useful to me.