A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Whipblade

Junior Member

08-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000midgets View Post
Doesnt need any more counterplayy, if they didnt pink against a rengar when he hits 6 its their fault. Shaco and twitch dont have any extra counter play and to top it off its not even their ult and shaco has instant invisibility.
Riot has already responded to this. The situation with Rengar is different because he can burst them down by 70% or more before they have a chance to respond. Pink wards are counters, but they are situational. You can't always have one ready. They want more counter-play in most situations, and I think that's fine. Especially if they are buffing it by adding duration and movement speed to it.


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Dead Star

Senior Member

08-06-2013

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GenesisV1

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Senior Member

08-06-2013

Your goal is to make the ultimate to give a hunter feel, but also have counterplay options right? Here's a suggestion:

Make Rengar's stealth EXACTLY like evelynn's stealth. He should break stealth if he comes within direct sight of an enemy champion. However, add these adjustments.

*Keep the current speed buff he gets while his ultimate is active.

*However, when he breaks stealth, give him a volibear/vayne style speed buff in addition to the first speed buff. He'll gain an extra 30% (example number) movement speed when moving towards enemies in addition to the first speed boost. Rengar can also press R again to break stealth and give himself the speed boost if he wants it earlier.

*He can use one leap for he entire duration of the ultimate, so even after he is revealed, he is capable of leaping. In this version of the ultimate, you can also try seeing how it feels if he is capable of additional or even unlimited leaps during his ultimate, but maybe with a cooldown in between leaps so that he doesn't just continually stick on Ashe like a piece of ducktape.

What this does is it allows him the remain a strong ganker/assassin, while at least offering some amount of counterplay. It works well on Evelynn; she's able to evade wards and apply pressure to the entire map just by being in the jungle unseen and she's able to use her speed buff into combat range to surprise people.

In this iteration, rengar's ultimate should give zero audio or visual warning when he activates it. The warning players will receive will be the fact that he breaks stealth before is in range to triple-stab their face. They can then try to CC or damage him before he gets to his target. However, he is compensated by having the bonus speed buff, which will allow him to weave and possibly dodge any skillshot-CC's they throw at him. The speed buff should be tweaked to the point where it is enough to compensate for his lack of full stealth. This value could be anywhere from 30 to 70% (the amount evelynn gets). The speed boost only applies when he is running towards enemies, as I think most people agree that rengar is slippery enough for what he does.


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Atyres

Senior Member

08-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whipblade View Post
Riot has already responded to this. The situation with Rengar is different because he can burst them down by 70% or more before they have a chance to respond. Pink wards are counters, but they are situational. You can't always have one ready. They want more counter-play in most situations, and I think that's fine. Especially if they are buffing it by adding duration and movement speed to it.
You mean like twitch right, except twitchs isnt an ult and gives attack speed along with his good range, true damage and fantastic damage...

difference is people dont generally complain about adc's and hate melee. All that was really needed to be toned down on rengar from the start was his heal and he would have been fine.


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Amariithynar

Senior Member

08-06-2013

Sad... When I saw the post about E becoming a skillshot I was really excited- Having to have a target to cast something has always been one of my least favourite functions, especially in melee when I'm clicking around for positioning outside of direct melee range; having the ability to bola someone over a wall before pouncing would also be lovely.


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Leonixxiii

Senior Member

08-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borand View Post

Suggested path of action:
Q no longer grants an attk speed buff, or deals damage.
Q now grants %armor penetration for a duration against the target that was hit.
Q2 no longer grants an attk speed buff
Q2 magnifies the Q effect
W no longer grants armor, magic resist, or deals damage
W now grants a medium-high duration attk speed buff, and causes his autoattacks to deal extra damage (scaling)
W2 no longer grants armor, magic resist, deals damage, or heals.
W2 now magnifies the W effect, and now cleanses Rengar.
E no longer deals damage, still slows
E now provides vision of the target for the next x seconds. Rengar's next auto attack against the Bola'd target will cause him to leap to it (only one use per bola).
E2 no longer deals damage, now slows instead of rooting
E2 magnifies the slow a bit, but disables target from using a repositioning skill.


Solved issues:
-Rengar's skills now all follow a higher offense pattern, and allow him to commit to targets.
-Rengar's skills don't deal damage themselves, they empower Rengar to deal higher damage.
-Rengar's old kit encouraged mashing all the buttons to gain low-duration, high-power/burst skills. This lead to not carefully managing Ferocity when going all in. The new pattern encourages more drawn out fights than earlier, so more careful ferocity management will maximize your damage potential. In conjuction with the above fact, Ferocity is no longer a problematic mechanic to Rengars balance.
-More drawn out fights means more realistic cooldowns for Rengar.
-Drawn out fights+ Removing defensiveness from his kit allows to readjust his base stats to be in line with a fighter.

(Oh, and good luck with your career at Riot Wav3Break!)"
So what im reading here is you want to turn Rengar into a carry, but with 0 defence/sustain, less early game damage, and crappier jungling who can be out classes by Fiora?
(Good luck)


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Magna Imperator

Member

08-06-2013

All you have to do is increase his health regen, fix his q bug, and fix on the hunt so that he can actually win, no matter what, kills or assists Rengar can't get the head of Kha'zix, but when he dies, Kha'zix always gets his fourth evolutionary point, plz just fix him.


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Servantofthe99

Senior Member

08-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Interesting that you bring this up!

Part of the reason for Wav3 and i's radiosilence is that there isn't much to report at present. Other champions are taking testing bandwidth - and while we're definitely getting good iteration on the changes we have, it's not like Lucian, Yi, or other recently 'near-done' testpoints that need multiple balance tests. Generally for things like this it's 'Make change based on hypothesis -> test -> validate -> repeat' Validating what worked/didn't work with a particular iteration is the easy bit (Rengar without %AS on Q felt bad, Rengar with Q-train felt cool), but working on the next iteration to make sure it's still aligned with the changes but making progress can take time.

We're trying some crazy things. Namely, pretty much every human (even those who agree that Rengar stabbing with 0 warning is BS) has been to some degree opposed to the Icon/VO telegraph - and while it's definitely more fair playing against (and not near as detrimental as perceived), there's a lot of validity to the feeling of 'I want to be a hunter lion and this goes against my instinct that i will feel powerful'. It's only one solution out of a lot of them - I hear you guys on this one, and so we're trying alternate approaches to add the appropriate counterplay on the ultimate.

Larger update as soon as we have concrete stuff to show.

how about this. i don't know if this will be too much but it could be a combination of combining eve passive with warwick's w passive. How about making the Rengar ult a toggle ability that grants a movespeed buff and the sight of enemy (scaled with levels), however, it reveals rengar's stealth when within a certain distance of an enemy like how eve's passive works. and instead of having it have the auto ferocity gain, make it so while toggled, the abilities give 2 ferocity points instead of 1. this justifies it as an ultimate ability and not just a previous champs passive, while taking away the potential to harass spam the toggle auto regen of ferocity.


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Somewhat Human

Junior Member

08-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklightning View Post
Scarizard: I am all for a global VO like Nocturne. I know you said he doesn't globally effect the other team so... WAIT FOR IT... WAIT FOR IT...

THE GLOBAL VO IS tracks behind enemy team across the map. Rengar is tracking them all so they are all influenced! Perhaps if they are within his range of influence he (alone) can see them (though they show on the minimap for everyone) but if they aren't in the sphere of influence all that is added is tracks for the duration. So the enemy can be invisible, but he or she will leave tracks behind. If you wanted you could scrap enemy visibility for Rengar and just give him very brightly laid tracks so that he can hunt his prey... and it allows for traps... stick a pink in a bush as soon as you see tracks behind you and hide in it with your friends. AMBUSH TIME.

If not for Rengar, add this idea into some other champion. It would be such a rush tracking where a champion had been. Where did the tracks go? Ah he flashed or recalled. Lame. Ooo other tracks.

I would love this! Maybe make it so he can see enemies with full stacks. PLS RIOT. At least comment. I never hear from you. Do you hate my haircut? :/

DARKLIGHTNING
Wow, this better receive a red post. I agree completely with this. After all, some of Rengar's dialogue goes along with this: "Catch their trail..., The scent of prey..."


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Fe1998

Senior Member

08-06-2013

Out of all the red posts I have yet see one post regarding AP Rengar. My question is, will the ap ratios on Battle Roar be buffed/nerfed or left alone? Will ap rengar still be viable? Ap rango is very viable in his current state and can carry games. I've recently played ranked games with ap rengar and have carried them.