Skarner, I miss your kind

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emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
General cooldown on e? Like 10 or 4 is what I'm asking. Though I like the idea, if the cooldown is too long it feels like I'm losing most of, if not all of, my entire pre-6 gank presence. If your pre-six presence isn't strong, or at least moderate, you are going to lose off in most cases to others. I'm assuming it still follows the pattern of alternating q's?


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messymike

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roablin View Post
Alas, but that is not the case for some of us. Some of us enjoy Skarner's unique laning phase that is quite fun, and not in the least "toxic." We are afraid of that being removed. I am worried about changes to Fracture, not so much about changes to Crystal Slash.



I totally agree, except for one thing. I think you underestimate the power of AP Skarner's Q. It is an unorthodox ability for mages, but it is a very powerful source of mage dps, especially with nashor's or guinsoo's. The only difficulty lies in getting close to opponents, especially with your relative squishiness.
i agree, i feel like AP skarner is the most unique AP i've ever played. his Q is his sustained damage throughout the fight, and his E is his burst. AP skarner is no joke, i get raged at when i pick him, but then everyone is amazed after the game is over because they literally never see skarner, and then they see AP skarner of all things! i'm really hoping scruffy tests AP skarner alot and not just tanky skarner.

AP skarner was literally the only thing that kept me from quitting LoL at one point at my deepest frustration. i would be so disappointed to see it go.
i hope riot realizes the gem that they have in skarner, one of the most fun melee mages i've ever seen.

EDIT: downvoted for.. what exactly? saying i love AP skarner? grow up kids, atleast reply to someones post you downvoted saying why


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Sun Tzu X2

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
Ok, what about Skarner's problems though?

-Mana Costs have been slightly reduced, but is it enough?
-What about the Ratio on his W, is that being buffed?
-Damage ratios being buffed at all to help with his lack of damage (besides the damage you get from amassing a number of Qs if the target stays around that long).
-Helping his reliability of his ult?


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Flana Scarlet

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsun Meta Knight View Post
Why does the proposed E have to take the Slow from his Live Q? Why is he purposely butchering his Live Q (Good damage, and good slows), just to simply slap a quick attack speed buff on it?
You answered this yourself. Permaslow is bull****, it has to go. Skarner is either auto-win in engagments or auto-loss. They either get slowed forever whilem he mauls them or they get away and it's pointless.

Why do you care so much about his E, let me ask. The heal is trashy unless you build AP (yeah good luck with that) and a mana drain if you bother to use it at all in the jungle when you could have just used Q for less mana and more damage. The cast bar makes you stop and forfeits one of the major parts of Skarner, which is his mobility. It doesn't even make all that much sense in comparison to the rest of his kit.

"New" isn't better by default, but neither is "Old." Skarner has problems, that's a fact. Unless perma-slow goes away, he will never get to be buffed in any viable way without becoming broken. Again. Something has to change for him to get the buffs he needs.


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Aye Deh Carry

Junior Member

07-30-2013

I feel like his "E" could use a bit of a rework. Very underpowered.


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messymike

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flana Scarlet View Post
You answered this yourself. Permaslow is bull****, it has to go. Skarner is either auto-win in engagments or auto-loss. They either get slowed forever whilem he mauls them or they get away and it's pointless.

Why do you care so much about his E, let me ask. The heal is trashy unless you build AP (yeah good luck with that)
sorry bro, have you ever played AP skarner? it is insanely fun and actually very viable.
AP skarner maxes E out first and it is a wrecking ball.

the answer isn't changing skarners entire kit, the answer is doing small changes. like allowing skarner to cast E while still moving, and doing number tweaks before doing anything drastic

this is what bugs me the most about this rework, he hasn't even received any minor buffs to see if it would help him, riot is just automatically fixing what isn't broken.
going to have to get my skarner fix while it lasts because from this thread it seems unlikely he'll come out as the same champion as when he went in.


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HigeR

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I... don't like his new E, that being said, I don't like his current E either lol. Let me explain, we've got several champions that fall under Skarner's gameplay style, mostly Melee with no gap closers, Udyr, Olaf, Yorick, Nasus and Volibear, come to mind. Right now there seems to be no reason to pick Skarner over any of these and on top of that he suffers from the same problems, kiting.

It is true however, that on live Skarner's E doesn't represent much damage, though the mark on people's head gives out a warning and want it or not they will avoid it, no one wants to heal skarner mid-fight, so the debuff will affect enemies yes? yes! also, there's Skarner's wit in using it not only against champions in the middle of a fight, but also on minions, just to have a little to fall back on, Fracture and the fact that it's ranged and goes through units IS Skarner's signature skill, he's not really that tanky, he's not really that fast, nor does he crazy amounts of damage, no, he depends on his wits to win battles and more than any other melee fighter he has to choose when to activate his haste more carefuly since it's his only way of closing the gap and escaping!

Now when you remove the heal AND the ranged projectile you leave skarner with no presence and on top of it you make him now worry about his position (not like live Skarner doesn't care about positioning but you're more worried about your passive or hitting more people with E or trying to get to the ADC in the back as fast as possible) now he has to worry about having a target to hit in order to apply his slow that probably won't reach the ADC in the back! at least before you got to zone them even if by a tiny bit and slowly but surely you would slow everyone around you and run like all hell towards your target.

The speed of this new E projectile must be lightspeed and as long as Lux' ult (ok hyperbole...) in order for skarner to use it effectively since before if you got a liiiiiitle close, the range on Q helped you in sticking, E granted you a bit of zoning ability and a heal in the process, now you can't zone if there are no targets around, you gotta run faster than udyr and hope for your AA to land in order to slow.

The way the game functions right now is warped towards high-speed high-mobility and taking the small bit of range that skarner has will leave him with very few options to fight. Maybe giving him the skillshot back would be nice as people would try not to get hit by it and then get slowed? Maybe increasing his ult's range by a good chunk (I mean, Blitz, Thresh and Naut do the same thing from 3 times range and in safety ._.)?

just my 2 cents u.u


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)
A 3 Stack buff from spamming Q that allows you to spam more Q provided you keep the buff up...... Thats Hecarims Q. Why do you feel the need to turn Skarner into Hecarim? By having them share elements of the same kit you end up with a "clone" champion and thats just as bad as the current situation where Hecarim outclasses Skarner completely.

Skarners current incentive is to spam Q to stick to people, to slow them which makes him different from Hecarim. By removing the slow and making it attackspeed his Q spamming is now for the sake of more Q spamming, which is the same as Hecarim. When you give a champion the same core mechanics of another champion both champions suffer for it. This is bad. Turning Skarner into a Hecarim clone is NOT a solution.


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Osun Kwon

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Junior Member

07-30-2013

NO These changes are an attempt at a better skarner but I think you have failed to hit the mark... Removing the w AS is a huge nerf if skarner's cant hit their E and this is not addressing the earlier issues he has... He has a problem with gap closing yet his ms is ramped up over time... Not reasonable since his initiate has to be better then this... Also all skarners are counted by flash and the fact when they ult its canceled immediately...


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Melroy

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

OK, didn't see this thread until now.

First, let me thank you RiotScruffy for taking the time to look at Skarner. He was my main champion for the most part of season 2, and I stopped playing him because of power issues he had, and how, at the time of release, Vi did everything he did better, and now I find Zac to do better. Still love the scorpion, but he wasn't holding up well, for a lot of reasons already addressed in this thread.

I guess I will start by answering the questions in the first post:

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
"You'll never escape." Now, that quote doesn't mean just his ult. When I played Skarner, his slows in his kit and his tanky stats made it so if Skarner got to you, even pre-6 without his ult, he makes it very hard to escape. This was counterbalanced by the fact that he doesn't have gap-closers to get you to the enemy instantly, and his MS buff could easily be poped off by breaking his sheild early game. He was a jungler with mean ganks, but if you see him coming, and make your escape fast, he won't do much to you, but if you stick around, or try to fight him, he will make sure you don't escape. That was fun. Sometimes your kit limited who or how you can fight, but when the fights happen, Skarner will make sure that fight ends with a death (his or the enemies) and not a flash escape.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
Well, mana problems for one. I never play skarner now unless my mid laner won't need blue buffs, because I need them to stay relevent in the game, and not just kill 2 jungle camps and be oom as the enemy jungler is ganking and I can't do anything.
His E being a useless don't take a point until you have to move that doesn't even fit his kit is another. Honestly, I see that it was a move put on his kit to let him lane, but it doesn't even do that job well. If there is a move on his kit that needs the rework/new move treatment, it is his E. For a champion who is always moving, it doesn't feel good to stop to shoot a skillshot...that won't have any real impact.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
Getting flash+ulted and killed. But it is his main playmaking strategy. The permaslow is only as annoying as you let it be. If Skarner is the enemy jungler, placing yourself just a little out of place in lane can be a death wish, but placing yourself well against him makes you a very hard lane to gank. You can always notice if he hit his Q on something else first, meaning he is preparing to slow you with the next Q. So you are given that short warning time to flash or move away from him (or burst his sheild so he can't catch up to you). Not much on Skarner's kit comes off as annoying that isn't far more annoying from other champions. Nunu's ranged-non preporation permaslow is far more annoying in ganks than Skarners.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Well, by Skarner's job, I assume you mean jungling, because lane skarner is a unconventional pick. In the jungle, Skarner does a pretty good job at clearing camps fast and ganking. His weakness comes from mana management and his 3 move kit. Zac doesn't Skarners job a lot better. More reliable pre-6 ganks, just as strong AoE clearing, and he has no mana problems to worry about. When she was released, Vi could do everything better than skarner. Had a sheild, a gap closer, a suppression ult, and WAY more damage than Skarner. Overall, I don't think that he is in a bad spot. He just needs his problems ironed out and he could probably compete with current popular junglers pretty well.


Now, as for what I am seeing in the iterations you are making now, taking the slow off of Q is a drastic DRASTIC change to Skarner's entire playstyle. I would advize against it. His Q is his funniest move to utilize well, despite everyone saying it is his ult. It isn't hard to use a Skarner ult correctly. It is hard to learn how to utilize your slows and damage and cooldown (through autos and his passive) of his Q. I won't tell you not to change the move, but when I said the funniest part of playing Skarner is not letting the enemy escape, seeing the slow on his E as a single auto attack seems like I won't be locking down much anything without my ult.

From what you are saying is you want his slow to be on-demand, but I would suggest rethinking this. It was something that made Skarner unique, the fact that he can't CC you right from the get go without his ult, he has to hit something first, then his next Q will slow. But, as a tradeoff, that slow can be permanent if the enemy can't escape you.

That's about all I can contribute to this right now, but if I were to give some ideas to try with the current kit, here would be a few example changes I would think about testing:
-Make E castable while moving, faster projectile speed, make marks heal a lot of mana and a small amount of health (gives him mana sustain for the jungle, keeps his E an effective laning move, lets him want to use it in fights while moving)
-Give him a new E that is an effective laning move, while still being a possible move alternative in the jungle/ganking
-Give his sheild more sheild health at lower ranks to help with jungle sustain. Currently, using that sheild in the jungle early is a waste of mana. It drops in 2 seconds. Only once the sheild is about rank 3 or 4 is it worth using as a sheild. Until then, it is JUST a MS buff for ganking. (a small note, if he has an effective sheild, having his E give health wouldn't be necessary.

Overall, just try to center his kit on the "You'll never escape" mindset. People love Skarner's ult. People love playing as Skarner going "No, your not getting away from me. You're mine now." It's what makes him fun, so try not to lose that feeling.