Skarner, I miss your kind

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Nexus Crawler

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
I've felt that Skarner's secondary effect on crystaline slash should have been a self buff adding magic damage to his auto attacks ever since his initial release. The secondary bonus damage always just felt not quite right to me although I could explain it thematically as crystaline vibrations.

However I still feel that it would synergize better with his melee style kit, and reinforce auto's for CDR, and maximizing damage while chasing.

That's my 2 cents and figured since he's getting looked at it was worth throwing out.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaingoSeven View Post
The "counterplay" is not letting him close the gap begin with, he has no instant massive gap closer and his movespeed buff is small + removed if the shield is broken. Hell, E doesn't even need changes, resistances need to be an actual stat instead of extra gold cost and words tacked onto items. All you buy in S3 is damage or HP, Skarner doesn't want either of those too much, he wants stacks of armor and magic resist to scale alongside his shield and heal.
I hear that EXACT logic with Ice Climber chain grabs. "Don't get grabbed". Yeah except no one likes that counterplay at all. The counterplay is "one mistake and you're instantly locked into the enemy's deathgrip." It's stupid. And this is coming from someone who plays the characters who aren't on the receiving end.


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ShiznazTM

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
I hear that EXACT logic with Ice Climber chain grabs. "Don't get grabbed". Yeah except no one likes that counterplay at all. The counterplay is "one mistake and you're instantly locked into the enemy's deathgrip." It's stupid. And this is coming from someone who plays the characters who aren't on the receiving end.
It's not like Skarner does carry damage. He needs to distract the enemy team so your team can do damage, this is what an Initiator does for his team.

Peel him or die. Like any other champion. If you give him no stick, you don't need to peel.

Skarner can 1v1, big ****ing deal so can: Jax/Shen/Nasus/Yorick/Ahri/Nautilus/ Should I name all 11X?


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Tsun Meta Knight

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
I hear that EXACT logic with Ice Climber chain grabs. "Don't get grabbed". Yeah except no one likes that counterplay at all. The counterplay is "one mistake and you're instantly locked into the enemy's deathgrip." It's stupid. And this is coming from someone who plays the characters who aren't on the receiving end.
Do you want to know what the funny thing is about what you just said? The Ice Climbers aren't "considered" viable, despite their "chainlock."


The difference between the two is that it's a lot easier to kite in League of Legends than it is to kite in Super Smash Brothers Melee. Things like frozen gauntlet seriously harm Skarner's ability to even get inside the enemy line to begin with.

If you don't have flash, guess what, you're not doing anything to "deathgrip" anybody. OH, and, HAHA I almost forgot. On the off-chance your flash is up, have fun flashing into the carry, ulting, and then returning with nothing because the carry himself had flash up.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiznazTM View Post
It's not like Skarner does carry damage. He needs to distract the enemy team so your team can do damage, this is what an Initiator does for his team.

Peel him or die. Like any other champion. If you give him no stick, you don't need to peel.
It's toxic (as Morello puts it) is the point. It's fun on the dealing end but not fun on the receiving end. It's not about being OP. Both examples (ICs and Skarner) are not god tier characters, they just have uncounterable mechanics that are frustrating for the enemy even if they aren't unbeatable mechanics.

When you get locked down by Skarner's permaslow you should be able to say "I have to do X, Y and Z, to get him off me." Currently you can't do that. The only answer is "I have to get to a turret so he gets bored and gives up." The choice/counterplay is all in the Skarner player's hands not the victim's hands. Can't even Cleanse the thing since he reapplies it immediately.


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MaingoSeven

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
I hear that EXACT logic with Ice Climber chain grabs. "Don't get grabbed". Yeah except no one likes that counterplay at all. The counterplay is "one mistake and you're instantly locked into the enemy's deathgrip." It's stupid. And this is coming from someone who plays the characters who aren't on the receiving end.
Entirely different game and even then it still has counterplay.
Ice climbers have to get close in a game in which EVERYONE has to get close, Fox / Falco won't win with short hop fast fall blasters alone.

Skarner? He can be kited to hell and back by Jayce, Ezreal, Lux, etc.
Even once he hops in and lands that first Q, you can use an escape or CC him. Hell, this is a team game after all, a teammate can CC him and tada!
He has to reclose the gap and land Q twice to begin slowing.
Skarner has always had counterplay, you don't even really have to use your head to notice it.


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RandomGuy928

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
I hear that EXACT logic with Ice Climber chain grabs. "Don't get grabbed". Yeah except no one likes that counterplay at all. The counterplay is "one mistake and you're instantly locked into the enemy's deathgrip." It's stupid. And this is coming from someone who plays the characters who aren't on the receiving end.
Chain grabs in smash bros are essentially stun combos. There is no counterplay once it goes off because the player on the receiving end has literally no way to affect the outcome and might as well grab a cup of tea while they wait to die and respawn (or hope the opponent messes up). Stunlocks are bad, and stunlocks in 1v1's are especially bad.

Skarner's Q is a slow, not a stun. LoL is a team game, not a 1v1. You can still fight back, CC Skarner, use your blinks/dashes to create distance, get help from your team, etc...

I agree that being able to permaslow is a huge amount of power, but comparing it to an Ice Climber chain grab is just inaccurate.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy928 View Post
Chain grabs in smash bros are essentially stun combos.
No need to explain. I brought it up because I've yet to meet one opponent who enjoyed being chain grabbed. "Wow that sure was fun watching me die without being able to do anything about it!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaingoSeven View Post
Entirely different game and even then it still has counterplay.
There's no counterplay once it begins.

I already replied to someone about this issue. Please read that. It's about how Riot doesnt' like toxic stuff and they're removing anything that can't be reacted to, like oneshot combos and chain CC.


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Sgt Necro

Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsun Meta Knight View Post
Do you want to know what the funny thing is about what you just said? The Ice Climbers aren't "considered" viable, despite their "chainlock."


The difference between the two is that it's a lot easier to kite in League of Legends than it is to kite in Super Smash Brothers Melee. Things like frozen gauntlet seriously harm Skarner's ability to even get inside the enemy line to begin with.

If you don't have flash, guess what, you're not doing anything to "deathgrip" anybody. OH, and, HAHA I almost forgot. On the off-chance your flash is up, have fun flashing into the carry, ulting, and then returning with nothing because the carry himself had flash up.
Looks like Skarner would have to get Iceborn Gauntlet then :/


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ShiznazTM

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
It's toxic (as Morello puts it) is the point. It's fun on the dealing end but not fun on the receiving end. It's not about being OP. Both examples (ICs and Skarner) are not god tier characters, they just have uncounterable mechanics that are frustrating for the enemy even if they aren't unbeatable mechanics.

When you get locked down by Skarner's permaslow you should be able to say "I have to do X, Y and Z, to get him off me." Currently you can't do that. The only answer is "I have to get to a turret so he gets bored and gives up." The choice/counterplay is all in the Skarner player's hands not the victim's hands.
You have a multitude of options.

1: Ward.
2: Ward
3: Flash
4: Run away.
5: Be with somebody else.
6: Any other of the 200 distance moves in League of Legends.

Skarner doesn't do immaculant damage. Just because you most likely play ADC and love getting every "Anti-ADC" mechanic in the game snuffed out, doesn't mean characters can't get their unique playstyle taken away from them.

Skarner's permaslow is FUN, the idea is to make a champion balanced, and FUN at the same time.

Lets take the example of Xerath: Is he good? Yes. Is he fun? Hell no he isn't fun. Hence: Overhaul.

Skarner is fun, everybody who plays Skarner thinks hes fun, why change the Fun things instead of fixing the unfun things? It's not like Skarner is permaslowing you RIGHT NOW IN GAME. Because god forbid someone plays Skarner, he's blatantly OP when BotRK exists right?

It's not fun when you can't do anything.