A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Greyfauxx

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Spirit Visage still gives access to greater healing - just now has health regen and more HP on it. It's the same item.

Also, Rengar since he has been shipped to live has always seen an icon on his opponent's head denoting that he has vision of them. Allies on your team will also see this icon, since Rengar's detection sight is given teamwide.
Are you crazy, don't try duct tapping something and calling it the same thing...
Loss of 20% healing means guys like AAtrox aren't going to want to grab it, or say Rengar, ect. Health per/5 in now way is the same as net increasing your mechanics. Now its better on someone like mundo and bruisers with heal mechanics will just by pass it for more LS or something. This option make me more likely to get a GA now, where I would have been thinking about how Spirits would work with my kit.

TL;DR
I get more health when smashed in the face and I heal more from abilities, is in no way the same thing.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

W rework idea: "-% damage done to Rengar if hit by Roar." Functionally this would be similar to +Arm/MR on Rengar but with one important difference. It only makes Rengar beefy to people he hits with Roar. This makes counter ganks (jungler doesn't have roar on them) or similar situations more dangerous to Rengar. It also pushes his defense in a more "stalky" fashion by debuffing his targets.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-30-2013
45 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfauxx View Post
Are you crazy, don't try duct tapping something and calling it the same thing...
Loss of 20% healing means guys like AAtrox aren't going to want to grab it, or say Rengar, ect. Health per/5 in now way is the same as net increasing your mechanics. Now its better on someone like mundo and bruisers with heal mechanics will just by pass it for more LS or something. This option make me more likely to get a GA now, where I would have been thinking about how Spirits would work with my kit.

TL;DR
I get more health when smashed in the face and I heal more from abilities, is in no way the same thing.
Reread what i said. Spirit Visage still has the healing and regeneration effects increased by 20% - the patch notes have said that it additionally gains 200 HP and Health Regen, due to Spectre's Cowl being a component of it.

The item is literally the same item. Just with +Cost and +Stats.


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Servantofthe99

Senior Member

07-30-2013

will the new R have instant stealth or still delayed...?


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfauxx View Post
Are you crazy, don't try duct tapping something and calling it the same thing...
Loss of 20% healing means guys like AAtrox aren't going to want to grab it, or say Rengar, ect. Health per/5 in now way is the same as net increasing your mechanics. Now its better on someone like mundo and bruisers with heal mechanics will just by pass it for more LS or something. This option make me more likely to get a GA now, where I would have been thinking about how Spirits would work with my kit.

TL;DR
I get more health when smashed in the face and I heal more from abilities, is in no way the same thing.


You sir have failed to read on an epic scale.


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Sinspurch

Senior Member

07-30-2013

wait...the 20% cdr from Spirit Visage is still there right?


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinspurch View Post
wait...the 20% cdr from Spirit Visage is still there right?
Still has kindlegem in it build and the notes say nothing about it being reduce or change so yes....it still has the 20% CDR


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Space Wizzard

Senior Member

07-30-2013

yo Scariz, why is lifesteal so hard to get for bruisers now? Wriggles isn't very good and zeke's is pretty terrible.


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lDanthera

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Scarizard and Wav3,Im still hammering on this:What are your guys opinion about Rengar getting vision over walls when he is in the bush,limited by his leap radius,as a BTN reward?


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PhishyZ

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Hey scar,
First, kudos to you guys in balance and development for interacting with the community so much on your work with champion redesigns. You, xelnath, wavebreak and a host of others have really embraced transparency and community feedback in your work and you all are to be commended. It's not lost on me how taxing it must be to comb through all of these posts. In that light, I apologize for my wall of text style and lack of investment in grammar but im a pour my thoughts on the page kinda guy.

Anyway, I want to propose to you that you test an iteration of rengars ult with a significantly decreased cooldown. Now this is all of course subject to balancing but the idea is something more akin to swains ult as far as cooldown, maybe twice in a teamfight depending on rank and cdr. Retain the VO but reduce duration and the movement speed buff as well as possibly vision range of enemy champions during stealth in favor of more frequent access to the utility it affords rengar. The thought process here is 2 fold. First, from rengars perspective, the knifecat feels reliant on his ult to truly be a presence for his team. Rengars relative lack of cc means that once the ult is burned he runs in and out and suffers from the current feast or famine snowball dependent gameplay that defines rengar on live. While the q train style that you are testing seems like a brilliant way to smooth out his damage a bit and make him a little more user friendly, the real issue stems from rengar being either snowballed like crazy or useless with a build path that is either glass cannon and is focused immediately with little counterplay to the ult for the enemy and little without the ult for rengar, or slabcat which doesnt bring much to the table due to low control of the opposing team, particularly when viewed in a competitive sense. If nothing else this makes rengars assassin playstyle more viable because he has access to his gapcloser more often. The greater availability of his gap closer not only makes him a greater threat due to increased mobility but also a greater threat in drawn out teamfights with multiple uses of his ult or the ability to use a second ult to hunt fleeing enemies in the waning moments of a fight. This idea goes right in hand with rengar thematically as well as with the design teams desire to take some of the unhealthy burst away from rengar while promoting the fighter aspect of him. Increased access to the ult also makes bonetooth necklace stacks more impactful and slot worthy considering the leap and ult buffing passives currently being examined. Additionally, the shorter cooldown would buff rengars ability to counterjungle and have buff control more readily as he can use his ult for utility, spotting enemies in the jungle or near objectives rather than having to pop it once in the be all end all moment. The duration change and decrease in the movement speed buff would address rengars split push ability, and make his escape, and moreover chasing rengar, a more dichotomous process as opposed to rengar stealthing and running far into the jungle without being vulnerable. A reduction in duration to say, 4 seconds, also eliminates the direct triple q from rengars arsenal hopefully making balancing easier. The side note to this is that 4 ferocity from the ult on a reduced cooldown is an acceptable tradeoff as 4 points still allows for a double q scenario on a gank with 4 points primed out of stealth. On the other side of the equation, reduced duration on the ult means the ult must be activated later when rengar chooses to gank. This may seem like overkill given the warning being implemented on the ult but allowing rengar to be seen in the river pre stealth instead of giving him infinite ability to bypass wards seems more dynamic. I see the shaco-esque counterplay to rengars ganking in this model as much more healthy then even whats being considered now while also possibly offering rengar power to be relevent and fully effective more often through the course of the game. Depending on testing this function of his ganking may also leave room for boosts in power elsewhere in his kit.

I admit that this isnt a comprehensive look at every scenario and variable that a short cooldown ult for rengar brings but overall this seems like a great direction to take rather than the traditional ult design. thanks for taking the time to read if you did and hopefully I can at least get a red out of this and if this has been discussed here and shot down already im very sorry for the strain on your eyeballs from reading this post for nothing.

P.s. in this model perhaps giving a flat reduction on the ult cooldown like 5 seconds unaffected by the cdr cap would be a cool thing to look into for a max stacks BTN passive for even moar ulting on a fed stabtabby

reflecting swains ult is a bad example because its cooldown is too short to be an analog in my proposal. Maybe 30 secs? 40? 25? You get the point