Skarner, I miss your kind

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CMDNEYO

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldRakdos View Post
You really take your time and do the homework, nice post
Thank you my friend ^_^


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Locke64

Senior Member

07-30-2013

What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

Staying glued to your target, allowing teammates to catch up. I find the tactic of slowing the enemy down to be more effective in essence than speeding yourself up (e.g. Hecarim). You can prevent the target from retreating too far, and your allies can catch up as well. Obviously it has its downsides, and both tactics are good in different situations (e.g. if the enemy escapes the cc it's hard to catch up, whereas that's not a problem with speed boosts).

I love q's synergy with Iceborn Gauntlet. And, of course, dragging the enemy carries around. (I once Impaled the adc at the same time my ally Janna ulted away the rest of the enemies in a 5v5 teamfight. It's great seeing five greens surrounding one suppressed red carry, with the other reds too far away to do anything about it.)

Many don't get e until post-6, but I find it to be an excellent companion to w's shield for sustain. After getting e at level 3 or 4, I can gain health as I clear camps without even using potions. If I have a constant supply of blue buffs I can stay in the jungle as long as I want. It does lose its usefulness when leaving the jungle though. Its brief channel time makes it a bad idea to use when chasing (it allows the target to leave aa range, which is very bad, as described below) and its damage and health regen are negligible in teamfights.

What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
When I mess up the flash+impale+run backward combo. I often flash in, target the enemy with Impale, and then right-click away just before Impale does its job, completely wasting the flash. Don't add a gap closer (beside's w's speed buff) though. They're fine for champions with weaker cc, but it'd be an op combination with Impale. Make us use our summoner spell for the gap closer.

q's aoe slow doesn't feel effective, especially when chasing. Its effective range is or seems much lower when the enemy is moving away from it, thanks to relative velocities. I'm not sure if the spell hits the target when the effect reaches it or as soon as it's cast though. i.e. does the spell emanate radially from Skarner over a short period, or does it instantly affect any enemy within its max radius? If the former, then relative velocities makes it harder to stick to fleeing enemies (and easier to slow chasing enemies). I'd like a little leeway with this. I often find myself just barely out of aa range and neither my q nor my gauntlet-empowered aa are able to reach the target. Shifting the aoe forward would weaken his escape, and increasing the range would of course likely make it op, so the only option I can think of is to make sure that the spell takes full effect within the full circle immediately - that is, if the enemy's within the radius when I cast the spell, they should be hit, without having a chance to run outside the range before the spell reaches them.

I don't like how heavily Skarner depends on blue buff. I play him to drag enemies to my carries and keep them from escaping, and taking too many blues seems counter to that when I could be giving them to my apc.


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oldRakdos

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMDNEYO View Post
Thank you my friend ^_^
no problem


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Roablin

Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoh Asakura View Post
I don't agree with removing the heal on skarner's fracture. He is really strong top, why is it decided that skarner MUST ONLY JUNGLE? I don't see this as a very healthy change. It also kills his sustain in jungle, even if you boost the shield's ratios and value whenever I see riot do that its like by 30~60+ .2 ap ratio. And then removal of like 30~180 Heal? Shield is temporary hp, a heal is recovery. Even if you added that very same heal value(which you won't) to skarners shield. He'd still lose net worth in sustain, thus that would be a nerf and not a buff.

In simple terms best case scenario:
Skarner shields and heals for full:
Net Life total 250+180 = 420. Without AP ratios.

If you take away heal, even if you boosted the shield to 320/350 he would still only be shielding AND it is a nerf to his total life.

What you're suggesting is taking away an entire stat to buff another one. And give him damage he does not need.
Those people who suggest removing Fracture's heal are ignoring the needs of us Skarner laners, I really hope they find a solution that works for both groups. Some Skarner junglers have mentioned that Fracture isn't a bad skill for the jungle in itself, it is just that Skarner's high mana costs prevent anybody from using it and its cast time makes it bad for chasing/dueling.


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RiotScruffy

Game Designer

07-30-2013
10 of 35 Riot Posts

Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff


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Better Ban Sona

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff

Though the heal is still gone, this is the best iteration so far (including Skarner on Live). Great work you have done here!


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Mango027

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
I dont even own the little scorpion and these changes sound awesome.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Cool. I like this iteration. It pleases pretty much all of my concerns suggestions essentially. ^_^


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Skyhawke

Senior Member

07-30-2013

RiotScruffy, when you say that damage will cause the slow, do you mean damage from Skarner or any source of damage?


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Vacus

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I like the new changes, as long as Skarner can actually stick on targets long enough to charge up his attack speed buff.


Without numbers on the E cooldown/slow I can't tell for sure. It's just very important to remember that it is HARD for melee champions to stay in melee with ranged targets for more than a few seconds. Very few melee champions are capable of doing it. The basic paradigm of 'X% slow for Y seconds with Z seconds of downtime' doesn't let you stay in melee and do sustained damage. It lets you stay in melee for Y seconds, and then get kited for Z seconds, and then have to gapclose again. Even Nasus with Wither, the most powerful targeted slow in the game, gets kited using this paradigm.


With a 14 second cooldown on Skarner's W, he'll get pretty much ****ed unless he manages to stay in melee the first gapclosing long enough to cool it down again, or at least have it close to cooldown (which takes some combo of AAs and seconds) by the time he gets peeled. And if all he has is an X% slow for Y seconds, he WILL get peeled; almost every ranged champion in the game is capable of escaping from a simple slow unless the champion applying it has some other trick. (Udyr, for example, speeds himself up every six seconds. That's huge! Nasus has a slow that lasts a million years and slows you to a crawl, and still gets kited when it's down; it just lasts so long that he can do sustained damage during it.. Zac has a slow that lasts nearly forever as long as he keeps hitting skillshots, and has a 1600 range gap closer to back it up. It goes on like this; champions who want to do sustained damage in melee need to have very powerful tools to be able to stay in melee, or their targets will simply walk away.)