A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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TheBlackDolphin

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Updates are looking good. Is there a general time frame we can expect these to go live or is it still pending.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-30-2013
43 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivi R66 View Post
Dude, he JUMPS when he is in the bush, move speed while fighting in the bush is USELESS lol, he has infinite gapclosers when fighting inside bushes. So its basically a mobility boots, does nothing when in bushes. Stop wording things, when they have no practical effect.
The intent here, is that if i engage in combat and lose my buff, running into brushes 'reactivates' the MS boost so i can move along them quickly to get my leap off - since fighting then moving into brush would flag you as in-combat, and cut the mobility boots bonus. I admit it's a little tinkery and maybe not the best solution, but so far feedback from testing has been the more stalking/set up that we put into Rengar the better it feels. As i mentioned before, just gonna try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
Oh well, fair enough. Will the ability however gain any changes? Increase range? AOE emp E? What ideas are floating around this ability? Or will it remain the same as it is on Live?

You talked about giving his emp abilities level scaling, what can be scaled on this?
The only intended change to the empowered ability scaling is their damage - as i've explained before, the intent is to remove the double-cast paradigm that exists on Live, where you empower whichever ability you've previously leveled. By giving them all similar damages that are based on Rengar's level, you make the decision 'Do i want Damage/Ferocity, Heal, or CC?' instead of 'let me cast Bola twice for ~500 dmg + a 1.4 ratio'

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackDolphin View Post
Updates are looking good. Is there a general time frame we can expect these to go live or is it still pending.
No time frame as of right now. Based on our playtests this week, the team feels like going deeper and taking more time on Rengar to ensure the predator we release back into the wild is one that makes our game better as a whole, and a more engaging experience for both sides. I'm not trying to rush anything out, which is why none of these changes have been to PBE yet - i just made the thread to give you guys insights into what we're testing and understand a lot of what you guys value/would like to see changed.


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Borand

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Hello Mr. Scarizard!
I've been a Rengar player for a while, I too could add to your conversation about Rengar.

First of all, there's a quite distinct pattern on Rengars skills:
Q- Offense
W- Defense
E- Utility
R- Playmaker skill (mix of offense, defense, and utility)

While it should be
Q- Offense
W- Offense
E- Offense
R- Playmaker skill

Part A: Theme
I think of Rengar as an offensive Fighter, that gets Frenzy when he's able to get to his target. He is no squishy, but no tank either. He is sturdy by nature (aka tanky), because he dwelves into fights with strong prey and he has to be able to withstand their damage.

Part B: Kit and Mechanics
Rengar was designed to be able to kill his target in about 1-2 seconds. Going with this direction though has lead to a kit that will allow Rengar to stay alive just enough to kill his target. This in turn lead to:

  • frontloading his entire damage (and steroid, and effectiveness) in only one skill (Q),
  • providing him an akward, temporary survivability tool (W) and
  • restricting his only gap-closer to his ultimate and brush.
In this kit, his slow is a bit akward, since it isn't either a nuke, or a tool that will reposition Rengar. He also has a really situational passive.

Design disparity: Rengar's intended playstyle closely resembles that of an asssassin. As opposed to the latest assassin releases and remakes though, Rengar has NO ways of getting out of the fight, reliable gap closers, and deals all of his damage through his autoattacks (melee ADcarry playstyle). He should be repurposed as a high offense, medium defense character.

Now, lets break his flaws down, one by one.
Frontloading the damage and offense on 1 skill
Rengar has only 1 skill that *essentially* deals damage, and that is his Q. His W provides him a little bit of survivability for a very short amount of time and deals next to no damage, and his E doesn't deal *that* much damage, nor does it allow for a follow-up if Rengar hits it mid+ range. E truly is a suboptimal skill currently.
If he's supposed to be an offensive character, the offense should be split among his entire kit.


Akward survivability:
His W offers him no stats when it doesn't hit something, nor does it grant ferocity. With its current iteration, when being kited you should be able to use this skill to increase your survivability and reach your target. But right now W is essentially restricting Rengar from having better base stats.

Only gap-closer is on ultimate and brush
Rengar suffers highly from the kiting melee syndrome. If he isn't near brush when he engages and where he lands, he can easily get kited and that invalidates his kit. If he is intended to be played as an all in, either bursty or sustained damage character, he should have more reliable ways of commiting to a target.

Suggested path of action:
Q no longer grants an attk speed buff, or deals damage.
Q now grants %armor penetration for a duration against the target that was hit.
Q2 no longer grants an attk speed buff
Q2 magnifies the Q effect
W no longer grants armor, magic resist, or deals damage
W now grants a medium-high duration attk speed buff, and causes his autoattacks to deal extra damage (scaling)
W2 no longer grants armor, magic resist, deals damage, or heals.
W2 now magnifies the W effect, and now cleanses Rengar.
E no longer deals damage, still slows
E now provides vision of the target for the next x seconds. Rengar's next auto attack against the Bola'd target will cause him to leap to it (only one use per bola).
E2 no longer deals damage, now slows instead of rooting
E2 magnifies the slow a bit, but disables target from using a repositioning skill.


Solved issues:
-Rengar's skills now all follow a higher offense pattern, and allow him to commit to targets.
-Rengar's skills don't deal damage themselves, they empower Rengar to deal higher damage.
-Rengar's old kit encouraged mashing all the buttons to gain low-duration, high-power/burst skills. This lead to not carefully managing Ferocity when going all in. The new pattern encourages more drawn out fights than earlier, so more careful ferocity management will maximize your damage potential. In conjuction with the above fact, Ferocity is no longer a problematic mechanic to Rengars balance.
-More drawn out fights means more realistic cooldowns for Rengar.
-Drawn out fights+ Removing defensiveness from his kit allows to readjust his base stats to be in line with a fighter.

Part C: Bonetooth Necklace
First off, I really like the fact that you are looking at Bonetooth Necklace. I never particularly liked this item, because of its' unreliability and weird mixture of stats it provides. It's main problem is that it's a gamble item, that, in order to be in max effectiveness, requires you to not die once. If you could lock the number of stacks somehow, that would make the item decent.

I was thinking of an iteration where you can upgrade your BTN in the store with gold, but I'm not sure yet. You gain ministacks by killing minions and monsters. After reaching a certain amount of ministacks, you can upgrade your Necklace by offering gold. Killing a champion can make the next upgrade free, or immediately upgrade your necklace.

Let me put an example:
You buy BTN. You cannot upgrade it until you reach 24 stacks. You farm minions and monsters, and once you reach 24 stacks, the 1st upgrade becomes available, which you can buy for 270 gold. Next upgrade becomes available at 48 stacks. Killing a champion can bring you to 48 stacks, add 24 regardless of what your current number of stacks is, automatically upgrade the item to its next level, etc.

What do you think of these? Please give them careful thinking before (if) replying.
I hope I get to discuss with you.

(Repost from previous page)
(Oh, and good luck with your career at Riot Wav3Break!)


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ScubaDivingPoop

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I just want to know when you'll fix the Q lock up. Happened 6 times in my game just now.....


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ShadowZPhoenix

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Here is an idea...

Why not Add in the change to Rengar's ultimate to kinda of add a death mark like Zed's on the Initial Target he jumps on after the ultimate is cast, except it allows for bonus damage from all targets kinda like Talon's cutthroat. A kind of Fear of the Hunter effect due to the fact that it is an ultimate, this would retain the ability that Rengar can still 100-0 someone from his ultimate with not as much chance of getting an escape even though they were warned he is in the area while in stealth from his ultimate. Granted this also allows for the damage reduced from the Q burst to not be as harmful to his current play because it will be more of a level 6 power spike rather than level 2 or 3 (based off of the opponent)

A lot of other problems i am encountering is when i play top lane Rengar (i don't really jungle him often) is that people often yell at me because "Rengar has to be tanky" just because i am building him full assassin with a bortk, hydra, bonetooth, cleaver, merc tred and last whisper with a changing final item.

He needs to still be defined as an Assassin and not a tanky bruiser... i mean you don't see anyone playing zed fully going around building randuins and warmogs and frozen mallet... he has his kit that allows him to Kite and slow enemies to either "assassinate" them or just make his quick escapes...

I am liking a lot of the changes presented by Riot throughout the thread, because i even joke about it with friends... rengar lvl 2 is first blood 9 times out of 10 in top lane.. and after that you just zone them to the point they cannot even farm.

the only point i think should be added is why not have his W have more of an impact when using it.. i know right now i level it last because i go for damage but maybe Rengar should shout to reduce the effects of slows and that effect scales with a % per level... not a major percent but a little bit.. this way he can safely jump in and out of fights without just getting picked off because of a Nasus wither, Singed's Adhesive and shot by Ashe's Frost shot simultaneously.


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Griiffy

Member

07-30-2013

Hello Mr. Scarizard!
I've been a Rengar player for a while, I too could add to your conversation about Rengar.

First of all, there's a quite distinct pattern on Rengars skills:
Q- Offense
W- Defense
E- Utility
R- Playmaker skill (mix of offense, defense, and utility)

While it should be
Q- Offense
W- Offense
E- Offense
R- Playmaker skill

Part A: Theme
I think of Rengar as an offensive Fighter, that gets Frenzy when he's able to get to his target. He is no squishy, but no tank either. He is sturdy by nature (aka tanky), because he dwelves into fights with strong prey and he has to be able to withstand their damage.

Part B: Kit and Mechanics
Rengar was designed to be able to kill his target in about 1-2 seconds. Going with this direction though has lead to a kit that will allow Rengar to stay alive just enough to kill his target. This in turn lead to:
frontloading his entire damage (and steroid, and effectiveness) in only one skill (Q),
providing him an akward, temporary survivability tool (W) and
restricting his only gap-closer to his ultimate and brush.
In this kit, his slow is a bit akward, since it isn't either a nuke, or a tool that will reposition Rengar. He also has a really situational passive.

Design disparity: Rengar's intended playstyle closely resembles that of an asssassin. As opposed to the latest assassin releases and remakes though, Rengar has NO ways of getting out of the fight, reliable gap closers, and deals all of his damage through his autoattacks (melee ADcarry playstyle). He should be repurposed as a high offense, medium defense character.

Now, lets break his flaws down, one by one.
Frontloading the damage and offense on 1 skill
Rengar has only 1 skill that *essentially* deals damage, and that is his Q. His W provides him a little bit of survivability for a very short amount of time and deals next to no damage, and his E doesn't deal *that* much damage, nor does it allow for a follow-up if Rengar hits it mid+ range. E truly is a suboptimal skill currently.
If he's supposed to be an offensive character, the offense should be split among his entire kit.

Akward survivability:
His W offers him no stats when it doesn't hit something, nor does it grant ferocity. With its current iteration, when being kited you should be able to use this skill to increase your survivability and reach your target. But right now W is essentially restricting Rengar from having better base stats.

Only gap-closer is on ultimate and brush
Rengar suffers highly from the kiting melee syndrome. If he isn't near brush when he engages and where he lands, he can easily get kited and that invalidates his kit. If he is intended to be played as an all in, either bursty or sustained damage character, he should have more reliable ways of commiting to a target.

Suggested path of action:
Q no longer grants an attk speed buff, or deals damage.
Q now grants %armor penetration for a duration against the target that was hit.
Q2 no longer grants an attk speed buff
Q2 magnifies the Q effect
W no longer grants armor, magic resist, or deals damage
W now grants a medium-high duration attk speed buff, and causes his autoattacks to deal extra damage (scaling)
W2 no longer grants armor, magic resist, deals damage, or heals.
W2 now magnifies the W effect, and now cleanses Rengar.
E no longer deals damage, still slows
E now provides vision of the target for the next x seconds. Rengar's next auto attack against the Bola'd target will cause him to leap to it (only one use per bola).
E2 no longer deals damage, now slows instead of rooting
E2 magnifies the slow a bit, but disables target from using a repositioning skill.

Solved issues:
-Rengar's skills now all follow a higher offense pattern, and allow him to commit to targets.
-Rengar's skills don't deal damage themselves, they empower Rengar to deal higher damage.
-Rengar's old kit encouraged mashing all the buttons to gain low-duration, high-power/burst skills. This lead to not carefully managing Ferocity when going all in. The new pattern encourages more drawn out fights than earlier, so more careful ferocity management will maximize your damage potential. In conjuction with the above fact, Ferocity is no longer a problematic mechanic to Rengars balance.
-More drawn out fights means more realistic cooldowns for Rengar.
-Drawn out fights+ Removing defensiveness from his kit allows to readjust his base stats to be in line with a fighter.

Part C: Bonetooth Necklace
First off, I really like the fact that you are looking at Bonetooth Necklace. I never particularly liked this item, because of its' unreliability and weird mixture of stats it provides. It's main problem is that it's a gamble item, that, in order to be in max effectiveness, requires you to not die once. If you could lock the number of stacks somehow, that would make the item decent.

I was thinking of an iteration where you can upgrade your BTN in the store with gold, but I'm not sure yet. You gain ministacks by killing minions and monsters. After reaching a certain amount of ministacks, you can upgrade your Necklace by offering gold. Killing a champion can make the next upgrade free, or immediately upgrade your necklace.

Let me put an example:
You buy BTN. You cannot upgrade it until you reach 24 stacks. You farm minions and monsters, and once you reach 24 stacks, the 1st upgrade becomes available, which you can buy for 270 gold. Next upgrade becomes available at 48 stacks. Killing a champion can bring you to 48 stacks, add 24 regardless of what your current number of stacks is, automatically upgrade the item to its next level, etc.

What do you think of these? Please give them careful thinking before (if) replying.
I hope I get to discuss with you.

(Repost from previous page)
(Oh, and good luck with your career at Riot Wav3Break!)


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ScubaDivingPoop

Senior Member

07-30-2013

When people say they've been playing rengar for a while do they mean 3 days?


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CowInSpace13

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I really like the idea of turning BTN into 2 different items. 1 for jungling, and 1 for laning.

On another note, I feel like being kited is probably his biggest weakness. If he can't finish of his target with his initial burst, he doesn't have much hope of getting the kill Slowing his burst potential to 5-6 seconds is really only going to make that worse. What do you think about giving Battle Roar a mini speed boost, so he can keep up with a target without his ult (especially considering he probably used it to engage).


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Tattersail

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
The intent here, is that if i engage in combat and lose my buff, running into brushes 'reactivates' the MS boost so i can move along them quickly to get my leap off - since fighting then moving into brush would flag you as in-combat, and cut the mobility boots bonus. I admit it's a little tinkery and maybe not the best solution, but so far feedback from testing has been the more stalking/set up that we put into Rengar the better it feels. As i mentioned before, just gonna try it.



The only intended change to the empowered ability scaling is their damage - as i've explained before, the intent is to remove the double-cast paradigm that exists on Live, where you empower whichever ability you've previously leveled. By giving them all similar damages that are based on Rengar's level, you make the decision 'Do i want Damage/Ferocity, Heal, or CC?' instead of 'let me cast Bola twice for ~500 dmg + a 1.4 ratio'



No time frame as of right now. Based on our playtests this week, the team feels like going deeper and taking more time on Rengar to ensure the predator we release back into the wild is one that makes our game better as a whole, and a more engaging experience for both sides. I'm not trying to rush anything out, which is why none of these changes have been to PBE yet - i just made the thread to give you guys insights into what we're testing and understand a lot of what you guys value/would like to see changed.
With the changes to Spirit Visage (it looks like it no longer synergizes with health and instead gives a hp5 boost) will you be looking to tinker with his roar heal amount? Also, just wondering if you guys have implemented the notification for Rengars ult onto the live servers, as I have been seeing it when playing Rengar. That eye notification pops up on the enemies that are within my ult range... I figured this wouldn't be coming out until the full rework release?


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-30-2013
44 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tattersail View Post
With the changes to Spirit Visage (it looks like it no longer synergizes with health and instead gives a hp5 boost) will you be looking to tinker with his roar heal amount? Also, just wondering if you guys have implemented the notification for Rengars ult onto the live servers, as I have been seeing it when playing Rengar. That eye notification pops up on the enemies that are within my ult range... I figured this wouldn't be coming out until the full rework release?
Spirit Visage still gives access to greater healing - just now has health regen and more HP on it. It's the same item.

Also, Rengar since he has been shipped to live has always seen an icon on his opponent's head denoting that he has vision of them. Allies on your team will also see this icon, since Rengar's detection sight is given teamwide.