A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Leonixxiii

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griiffy View Post
Here's the problem I have with all of you Rioters. You say a fed rengar is toxic because he can ult and triple Q out of no where and there is no counter play. Keep in mind that's his ULT. I played a fed twitch the other day, I was midlaning Talon or something, but the point is is that he was fed. He did the same thing to me, popped his stealth, threw his potion and destroyed me within seconds. The thing about this is that his stealth is a basic ability on a lower cd. Am I supposed to buy pink wards and put them every where and not have enough money to buy my hyrda and cleaver? Eve's passive makes laners constantly buy pink wards because regular wards have no effect on her.

The point I'm trying to make is, if you are going to remove Rengar's TOXIC stealth, you better remove every other stealth in the game because it's "toxic." You guys are so blinded by Rengar you can't even see past him because he is finally in a spot that people like to play him and apparently that's not ok by you.
If you have a fed Twitch your team should all buy some pinks, and don't stand around alone when he is missing... Also I believe the difference is that was a fed Twitch where Rengar can do the same thing, and THEN is fed. which makes it worse.

Rengar's prob isn't his ULT, its his Ult & 3xQ together... The reason for the warning is because his ult now lasts 12 secs, and has a lower CD at ranks 2&3... Yeah it sucks they are cutting the burst from his Q, but it is the reason the rest of him is so weak, and with a (hopefully slight) shift to sustained damage gives him a better chance to kill tougher targets, and not only prey on squishes.

Not saying this new Ren is omg good, but there is allot to add up before we all assume hes broke/dead, I mean the stat changes alone make him way better in the jungle, never mind the Q shift... He hasn't even hit the PBE yet.


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IS1bebc30e34fedef61db6c

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Already planning on posting on EU, wanted to make a thread fresh with the newest iteration. As we're between iterations currently, expect a thread on EU forums before the week is out, as well as a main-page update to this thread.
Don't expect anything till I see it, Riot has lied to and neglected EUW on too many occasions. However don't you think its sad that for a company that claims their community is imporant the community has to bust some kneecaps before Riot acknowledges our existence, if it is not the NA community that is.


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deathmage390

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Let me clarify:

Currently Rengar functions/"performs greatest" as an Assasin/Split pusher. This leads to an incredibly disjointed play pattern as an average game progresses because his kit only offers him one avenue of getting into a late game team fight away from the jungle, his ultimate.

Adding on the fact that he is currently a long duration true stealth character with burst(a play pattern that is not really healthy for the game, eg pre-rework Evelynn...), we feel that Rengar exacerbates this problem with his incredible target selection through his ultimate. Thus an already toxic play pattern becomes even more toxic and further fuels the "feast or famine" scenario that live Rengar currently faces. If Rengar is ahead, he becomes a god who can insta-gib and knife-cat any enemy of his choosing. If Rengar is behind he feels incredibly useless in team fights because even though he can choose his target to go on, his only purpose as an all in melee "assassin" cannot be fulfilled.

The other problem that exists is in the fact that Rengar always has the backup option of split pushing with a true stealth escape tool and attack speed steroid to crush buildings. This pattern is NOT something we want to promote but inevitably exists due to the nature of his kit. Split pushing is a viable strategy and IT IS OK for Rengar to split push, but he should not be able to abuse his ultimate so easily to escape the stickiest of situations WHILST having his amazing structure killing potential.

With that out of the way, we don't necessarily want to make Rengar into a champion like Renekton(who still has pretty decent burst damage at level 2 mind you) but we do feel his current burst potential, especially at earlier levels is simply too high. It does not take a lot of number crunching to notice that Rengar's mindless level 2 burst combo can deal ~60-70% of the average level 2 champions health pool.

The fact is, on a kit with reset mechanics like Rengar, burst will always exist early on and the challenge for us is to tune it into something healthy/balanced/counter-playable. You should rest easy, Rengar will always be able to knife-cat surprise stab people at stages of the game, we just want to make sure your knife-catting experience isn't unfair or too limiting in later stages of the game.

TL'DR: Assassin/burst character with long duration true stealth = bad. Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your AD-Carry and die right after/I can only kill your AD-Carry and am useless to my team if I fail."
interesting thoughs on rengar. btw please take a glance at eves ult it is currently counter intuitive and has no damage. please pass that alone to the live team.


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deathmage390

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?
current karma would like to disagree with "never to much counterplay". Q has about 5-6 different counter play options. W is ez to counterplay, and R counterplays itself.


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Kiviskus

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
I've reverted Battle Roar to Armor/Mr for the time being. I completely acknowledge that the community doesn't care about its durability function and feedback has been overwhelming that it should likely be a selfish offensive buff or a debuff to enemies - this is still on the table, but it isn't altogether clear what that mechanic should be that takes it place. I would love to ship Rengar changes with a new Battle Roar mechanic, but it isn't 100% necessary that it occurs.

I consider Battle Roar WIP and plan to nix the mechanic if anything else arises that makes more sense, especially if it can align with what the community wants from the ability. Generally against Tenacity/Cleanse, would rather have it be conditional based on the champion/number of champions hit. CC is probably not going to happen. Self-empowering beastman yell or demoralizing shout type things are what i'm lookin' at, tho.
What if we reversed the skill the way it is live. normal now gives a much lower heal with the same cd, empowered gives a very large buff to AR/MR for a short time.


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deathmage390

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map.

I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout.

Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?
i think the longswaord + hunters _100g is great idea. gives both lane and jungle a option to start its build.


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Kiviskus

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Hey everybody, just wanted to update you guys with the current testing status of our current iteration of Rengar.

Heavy destructive testing will continue for the Empowered Savagery refunding 3 ferocity points play pattern. This past week we found that Rengar was still doing too much damage in too little of a time frame which is a problem we still need to solve within this iteration. This iteration also makes jungle Rengar incredibly resourceful as he can walk away from each creep camp with more ferocity stacks and gank lanes without as much preparation.

The big changes we will be testing this week are Bone Tooth Necklace which will now give Rengar a personalized jungle item which has a really favorable build path out of Long Sword and Hunter's Machete. The overall price of the item has stayed the same but as Scarizard said in his posts, "mini-brutalizer" - esque stats will no longer exist on BTN. BTN is now an item that gives Rengar bonuses that directly impact his mobility in the jungle and thus his overall map pressure. The current bonuses in place look something like this:

3 Stacks - Rengar gains 15% movement speed while in brush(bonus does not persist outside of brush like Nidalee's)

6 Stacks - Rengar gains 100 range on his Leap(slightly nerfed due to having access to it earlier.)

9 Stacks - Rengar retains movement speed from his Ultimate for 5 seconds after exiting his ultimate. (Rocket cat goes zooooooooom)

The 14 stack bonus is still a pretty big grey area as we want Rengar players to reach this epic state at 14 stacks but we don't want them to do so at the cost of making his game play toxic again.

An additional mechanic we will be testing with BTN is allowing Rengar players to build stacks out of neutral monster kills. Currently the amount of neutral monster kills required to build a stack is pretty hefty, which encourages jungle Rengar to invade the enemy jungle to take camps but also hopefully interact with the enemy jungler. This mechanic is still kind of the grey area as well because it might give too many advantages to a jungle Rengar over a lane Rengar and we don't want to make laning Rengar's feel bad for purchasing this item.

If you guys have any thoughts on what epic thing Rengar should get at maximum stacks toss'em out! I look forward to the ideas you guys will give me and Scarizard!
Would two bonetooths be possible? because i enjoy rengar top and i would love a bonetooth more suitable to that. One builds out of a longsword and the other build out of a machete.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
2. E being a skillshot is largely benched. It's not clear what the actual gains of it would be, and melee skillshots (Kha'Zix, Skarner, Shyvana) are generally not fun/awkward to use.
Oh well, fair enough. Will the ability however gain any changes? Increase range? AOE emp E? What ideas are floating around this ability? Or will it remain the same as it is on Live?

You talked about giving his emp abilities level scaling, what can be scaled on this?


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Leonixxiii

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
Oh well, fair enough. Will the ability however gain any changes? Increase range? AOE emp E? What ideas are floating around this ability? Or will it remain the same as it is on Live?

You talked about giving his emp abilities level scaling, what can be scaled on this?
Bola Strike
- Damage increased
- Bonus AD Ratio increased

Ferocity Bonus: Bola Strike
- Now deals damage based on Rengar's level
- Root duration increased


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Borand

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Hello Mr. Scarizard!
I've been a Rengar player for a while, I too could add to your conversation about Rengar.

First of all, there's a quite distinct pattern on Rengars skills:
Q- Offense
W- Defense
E- Utility
R- Playmaker skill (mix of offense, defense, and utility)

While it should be
Q- Offense
W- Offense
E- Offense
R- Playmaker skill

Part A: Theme
I think of Rengar as an offensive Fighter, that gets Frenzy when he's able to get to his target. He is no squishy, but no tank either. He is sturdy by nature (aka tanky), because he dwelves into fights with strong prey and he has to be able to withstand their damage.

Part B: Kit and Mechanics
Rengar was designed to be able to kill his target in about 1-2 seconds. Going with this direction though has lead to a kit that will allow Rengar to stay alive just enough to kill his target. This in turn lead to:

  • frontloading his entire damage (and steroid, and effectiveness) in only one skill (Q),
  • providing him an akward, temporary survivability tool (W) and
  • restricting his only gap-closer to his ultimate and brush.
In this kit, his slow is a bit akward, since it isn't either a nuke, or a tool that will reposition Rengar. He also has a really situational passive.

Design disparity: Rengar's intended playstyle closely resembles that of an asssassin. As opposed to the latest assassin releases and remakes though, Rengar has NO ways of getting out of the fight, reliable gap closers, and deals all of his damage through his autoattacks (melee ADcarry playstyle). He should be repurposed as a high offense, medium defense character.

Now, lets break his flaws down, one by one.
Frontloading the damage and offense on 1 skill
Rengar has only 1 skill that *essentially* deals damage, and that is his Q. His W provides him a little bit of survivability for a very short amount of time and deals next to no damage, and his E doesn't deal *that* much damage, nor does it allow for a follow-up if Rengar hits it mid+ range. E truly is a suboptimal skill currently.
If he's supposed to be an offensive character, the offense should be split among his entire kit.


Akward survivability:
His W offers him no stats when it doesn't hit something, nor does it grant ferocity. With its current iteration, when being kited you should be able to use this skill to increase your survivability and reach your target. But right now W is essentially restricting Rengar from having better base stats.

Only gap-closer is on ultimate and brush
Rengar suffers highly from the kiting melee syndrome. If he isn't near brush when he engages and where he lands, he can easily get kited and that invalidates his kit. If he is intended to be played as an all in, either bursty or sustained damage character, he should have more reliable ways of commiting to a target.

Suggested path of action:
Q no longer grants an attk speed buff, or deals damage.
Q now grants %armor penetration for a duration against the target that was hit.
Q2 no longer grants an attk speed buff
Q2 magnifies the Q effect
W no longer grants armor, magic resist, or deals damage
W now grants a medium-high duration attk speed buff, and causes his autoattacks to deal extra damage (scaling)
W2 no longer grants armor, magic resist, deals damage, or heals.
W2 now magnifies the W effect, and now cleanses Rengar.
E no longer deals damage, still slows
E now provides vision of the target for the next x seconds. Rengar's next auto attack against the Bola'd target will cause him to leap to it (only one use per bola).
E2 no longer deals damage, now slows instead of rooting
E2 magnifies the slow a bit, but disables target from using a repositioning skill.


Solved issues:
-Rengar's skills now all follow a higher offense pattern, and allow him to commit to targets.
-Rengar's skills don't deal damage themselves, they empower Rengar to deal higher damage.
-Rengar's old kit encouraged mashing all the buttons to gain low-duration, high-power/burst skills. This lead to not carefully managing Ferocity when going all in. The new pattern encourages more drawn out fights than earlier, so more careful ferocity management will maximize your damage potential. In conjuction with the above fact, Ferocity is no longer a problematic mechanic to Rengars balance.
-More drawn out fights means more realistic cooldowns for Rengar.
-Drawn out fights+ Removing defensiveness from his kit allows to readjust his base stats to be in line with a fighter.

Part C: Bonetooth Necklace
First off, I really like the fact that you are looking at Bonetooth Necklace. I never particularly liked this item, because of its' unreliability and weird mixture of stats it provides. It's main problem is that it's a gamble item, that, in order to be in max effectiveness, requires you to not die once. If you could lock the number of stacks somehow, that would make the item decent.

I was thinking of an iteration where you can upgrade your BTN in the store with gold, but I'm not sure yet. You gain ministacks by killing minions and monsters. After reaching a certain amount of ministacks, you can upgrade your Necklace by offering gold. Killing a champion can make the next upgrade free, or immediately upgrade your necklace.

Let me put an example:
You buy BTN. You cannot upgrade it until you reach 24 stacks. You farm minions and monsters, and once you reach 24 stacks, the 1st upgrade becomes available, which you can buy for 270 gold. Next upgrade becomes available at 48 stacks. Killing a champion can bring you to 48 stacks, add 24 regardless of what your current number of stacks is, automatically upgrade the item to its next level, etc.

What do you think of these? Please give them careful thinking before (if) replying.
I hope I get to discuss with you.

(Edited post to clarify points)
(Oh, and good luck with your career at Riot Wav3Break!)