Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Daithok

Senior Member

07-30-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner? Giant scorpion of dooooooooooooom! Busting through the middle of the enemy team grabbing a key target and dragging them helplessly back

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner? Being endlessly kited with no real way to prevent and or counter it.


• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner? Perma slow


• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why? Udyr can clear jungle faster, better sustain and tankiness and more reliable cc in the form of stuns. Nautilus has a ranged grab thats also a gap closer and a better shield that also increases damage output through aoe

Their aren't actually alot of champions with similar kits to scarner (Which isnt a bad thing) But its hard to say "This champ does this better" When each of his abilities is tied to different champs. Zac has similar slows but better range, Blitz thresh and nautilus have grab initiates that are better, Udyr has speed steroid and spammable cc / wave clear thats also better. However those abilities are balanced because they don't also have what scarner has.

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Would his E be better if it was an aoe splash that synergized with his Q? You'd have to hit enemies with your E to mark and then as you spammed Q on them they would recieve stacks of slow % that would last 3 - 5 seconds,

For example Scarner goes head to head with Udyr, Scarner hits his W for shield and speed boost to catch up and E him then begins Q spam, Every time udyr is hit he gets slowed by lets say 10% max 3 stacks, Scarner hits 2qs before udyr stuns him and runs hes only slowed 20% now and makes it just out of range for a 3rd Q and scarners shields down by now so he cant catch up and the stacks wear off.Also you'd have to keep the target marked for the Q to stack slows that way its not permanently tied to just Q and if they dodged or flashed your E their would be no slow, Which allows counter play.


Maybe his E even provides the first stack or two to help catch up to the opponent? Just a thought what do you guys think?


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ANNIE GET MY GUN

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Someone pointed out earlier that no matter how you buff Skarner's E, it's really hard to justify putting it in his kit - when you're trying to gank someone, you don't have time to stop and cast a skillshot. Why not make it targeted and tied in to his slow, if you want to reduce the slow on his Q? Perhaps he targets someone at a range, does some small amount of damage and marks them, and if he hits them with any autos or abilities it slows them/gives an attackspeed boost as long as they are marked without consuming the mark? Or perhaps do a targeted AOE (like Sven's stun from DotA, except not a stun)?

Other than that, the idea thrown out of increasing the cooldown on earlier Q's to reduce permaslow seems like a good idea. I feel no good can come of directly nerfing the slow (every other, only once, etc.) because it's contrary to Skarner's spammy-Q, stick to them and do damage playstyle.

When Skarner came out, I recall Morello saying this:

"The idea behind Skarner is to get on people, stay on them, and really capture that inevitability of being run down by a predatory creature. Additionally, we wanted to avoid an instant gap closing mechanic so there's appropriate counter-play."

Isn't that enough?


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Nosidius

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post

I think a really powerful change that would make Skarner's kit more clear in its usage and counterplay would be to focus the W and E abilities more for a single purpose each. W can be his defensive and gap closing ability exclusively. Inversely, E can be more focused as a brawling/jungle clearing/damaging ability.
Ok, sweet, love to see skarner come back. He was amazing S2 and one of my mains.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Overall
-Overall mana costs reduced (probably looking at E first its super costly)
Anyone who built muramana on skarner in S2 remembers his mana costs, I have no complaints about helping his mana issues out. Especially considering his passives innate spammyness

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Q
-Hopefully removing permaslow by making the slow only occur on every other Q instead of all Qs after the first. To balance the loss in slow duration here, I want to make it a much stronger slow that decays over time but leaves gaps for people to counterplay. Hopefully this will be fun for skarner players too because they can now make some smart decisions when they want to use the new more powerful Q slow.
Im really nervous about this, i'd like to be on the PBE for this and provide feed back though. Keep in mind skarner has always been played as a sheen proc champion, so taking out his Q spam is going to drastically reduce his DPS. While you say this makes for better counter play it leaves champions like udyr in a significantly advantageous position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
W
-Increase the movespeed buff so that it is closer to other similar champs like Udyr and Volibear
-Possibly make the movespeed ramp up over time so its not too powerful of an escape "get out of jail free" ability
-Lower cooldown back to 14s from 18s like it was a few patches ago
-Strengthen the shield amount/AP ratios (to compensate for the loss of heal from E)
-Remove attack speed from the W buff
Glad to see the cooldown back down, he needs it badly. Movespeed ramp up im a little hesitant about since he can be kited so easily but if it increases his overall terrain increase it'd be nice to see it as a jungler. Attack speed buff im REALLY hesitant about, it was how you pushed towers, one of his few redeeming qualities S3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
E
-Instead of the heal, proccing the E mark on targets will now give skarner his attack speed buff
-Increase total damage, but split it up so that only some is up front and the rest happens when you proc the mark
-Reduce mana cost
-Look into better usability (faster projectile, faster cast, etc) may be one or all of these
Akali-esk? i'd like to see it on the PBE, once that happens ill say my piece. Reduced mana cost needs to happen badly. Faster cast time is the biggest thing though, simply put it wasnt rewarding at all to cast it in a fight. The only time I cast fracture post lvl 8 was for sniping people if they were running at very low health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
R
-Fix more edge cases so that the R will reliably go off on targets once it has been cast
Nothing to say here that im sure the community hasnt complained about in the past. It's been frustrating since the change to his ult to see people you know were in range get away because they have a break lock.

The biggest thing for skarner if you intend to make him lane-friendly is to set him up as a counter pick to champions like pantheon that depend on their low cooldown casting to be useful. Looking at proposed changes, namely in regards to his mana, giving him mana sustain off his E wouldnt necessarily be a bad thing either. That or give him a kassadin/jayce hammer form passive for mana sustain. It's a proven mechanic, and skarner is an AS champion so it would be friendly to his kit without making massive all-encompassing changes to his build style.


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naotasan

Senior Member

07-30-2013

In before Skarner is remade into a stupid-easy champion like Karma


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IS1d23911af5c121aabcdf8

Junior Member

07-30-2013

i dont see anything wrong with his E
i love his heal, and it is an awesome tool while on lines, and to kill someone who flahes away
actually it is a great and the only way to kite without being on melee range

the only problem is the mana cost, since nashors tooth dont grant mana recovery anymore i really have problems with mana starve, that is his main problem
he has all the tools to spam but no mana to do it like it should, normaly i can kill someone with him without problems, but after that i have to recall because i have no mana left


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CS3Narutoi

Senior Member

07-30-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
[Jungle]
- Decent clear speed
- Speedy scorpion, both MS and AS
- Passive lowers cooldown
- Perma slow
- "Feel my STINGER!" (ult)
[Lane]
- Decent sustain with E and shield
- Sets up ganks with jungler well with ult and slows

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
[Jungle]
- E seems kinda useless early on when jungling, and takes time to cast
- Speed to gank and initiate lost when W destroyed
- Ult gets cancelled because they blink away
[Lane]
- AS lost when W destroyed when fighting
- MS lost when W destroyed when escaping
- Ult gets cancelled

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
[Jungle]
- Perma slow
- Grabs and drag
[Lane]
- Tower baits with shield, heal, and ult

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
N/A

• How to counter Skarner?
[Jungle]
- Break his shield when he ganks
- Have an escape to prevent perma slow and cancel ult
- CC him
[Lane]
- Dodge his E
- Damage him a lot so he needs to E minions waves to sustain, which pushes lane
- Have an escape
- CC


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Can his battlecast look like this?

Click image for larger version

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Da Ganzi

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'm seeing the feedback about removing the permaslow from Q. It's definitely a loss in power for Skarner, but with the goal of increasing his consistency, it could work out to his benefit. How would you feel about Skarner having a way to activate his slow right off the bat instead of delayed instead of having permaslow?
Skarner's Q:

Yes, I think giving him a more substantial slow and giving it to him on the first cast would be a huge improvement. His permaslow is good and all, but the slow isn't all that great so most champs can usually get away from a pre 6 gank pretty easily. If it was a better upfront slow, than Skarner and his laner could burst some damage onto them.

Skarner's W: Would it be too much to ask for some tenacity on it?

Skarner's E: I also really dig the idea of it being faster/more responsive and giving more damage on proc'ing with an auto attack. I think this would synergize really well with his new Q. This way they are slowed enough for you to land an E and proc with an auto attack. The problem with his old Q + E was that you stop moving to cast E and would waste his permaslow to get that extra damage off.

Skarner's R: I think that undoing the nerf to his ult is pretty important to his QoL. I mean look at Vi, there is literally zero counterplay to that ability. She just points + clicks and puts in no effort and little risk. Skarner on the other hand, has to run through the entire enemy team if he wants the same effect, but when he gets there they have the chance to flash out of it. Unlike Singed and Volibear which had similar issues, this is Skarner's ultimate and I just think it should feel more powerful.

tl;dr: I really like the direction of these changes! but I feel like he could maybe use a little tenacity on his W and his Ult nerf should be reverted!


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SkarSkarSkarner

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'm seeing the feedback about removing the permaslow from Q. It's definitely a loss in power for Skarner, but with the goal of increasing his consistency, it could work out to his benefit. How would you feel about Skarner having a way to activate his slow right off the bat instead of delayed instead of having permaslow?
I feel as if that would help Skarner's ganking potential pre 6 out a lot since most champions have a way to escape Skarner before he can get his perma slow started. I was wondering how long is the cd on the activated slow would be? Skarner is my favorite champion because everyone fears being caught by his perma slow/ult.


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Ekolid

Senior Member

07-30-2013

First I'd like to thank you Scruff for doing this. Skarner has been my main and favorite champ for over a year now, played him with multiple builds, and I've played LoL generally for ~1k+ hours, I gotta say, the most fun moments were while playing Skarner.. but the reason behind it all is different than what others think of him. I play lane Skarner! preferably mid and quite competitively, though I didn't play LoL much since the +4 secs nerf on his shield cause it has severely and in a way indirectly affected my CDR build, and to return honestly I'm constantly just waiting for a Skar fix, and a skin!( he never got a skin and it's been like 2 years? ._.)

Please note while I might have the "Skarner" obsession, not as a bigass scorpion or being one of a kind, it's his kit, I know how strong it is now, and I think he needs mostly QoL changes. I havent read others suggestions, but my own different perspective on him could be for the better. I hope you'll be able to read on all what I have to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
-I love the hybrid aspect with Skar and even though hybrid champs have a hard time with LS/SV skarner doesn't need neither, he can just use his kit to sustain himself nearly as good as AD bruisers but with more dps from the hybrid items, so my favorite thing gotta be how deceivingly tanky he can get w/o relying much on HP/LS if he keeps attacking and dishing out dmg, this only works around certain builds which I'll explain the secret behind it for the first time below after the questions!

-To think that I ulted only to fail due to fog of war or some late flash as I move back empty handed for a sec, ruining further opportunities to chase. Also missing on with your max lvl Es can be crucial, some good players fear it and anticipate it.

-Flash+ult can be an extremely frustrating hard cc, but good players calculate this when his flash is off cd, and this can be common with many other cc champs.

-Hard to say. Skarner's job(in lane) in my opinion is very unique, he can use certain item combinations that others dont usually use, but his mana issues can put him behind a few champs, I don't really have any champ to compare him with. As a jungler though he's slow at single target clearing unless with blue. his ganks pre 6 are hardly any threat. so a champ like Xin easily top him cause hes better at everything pre 6, which leads to being better probably thereafter.

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My lane build:

I've been coming up with some effective uncommon hybrid kass, taric, fizz, shen etc builds all the time... but I've been experimenting with Skarner probably more than anyone ever did, and digging deep uncommon builds with this one is one of the reasons I really enjoy LoL.

For my build.. Now what I hate to see go is Skarner's heal, losing the heal basically will make his effective lane build not there. I favor Skarner cause of his unique ability to shield AND heal, top this with the fact that he's able to spam them with his passive's CDR(when built AS+AP+CDR), and you can get tons of HP with minimal or no HP items, but to make the HP into eHP you'll have to have Armor and MR.

Lane skar is focused around his great sustain abilities to counter how easily harassed early on he can be, I don't want to spoil most of his core items/rune/masteries combination that can make this very effective, but it's important to note than this requires a heavy investment on mana regen/mana and AR/MR depending on your laner.

How this works is all centered around maxing his E first, last hit with E to heal. Again, I last hit with E to heal, master this from certain angles not to push, and spend on MP, its efficient in lane. E is also an okay harass. Then I max W, but I must have enough MR/AR to make all this into eHP.

Lane Skar does better vs magic dmg generally, so it's not necessarily mid. the idea behind this is that it's super effective to get a chalice + merc trends early, which, combined with a near infinite sustains from E and W gives enough MR thus eHP to win vs almost all mages.

With all that said lane Skar is vulnerable to cc early on and is not that good vs other ranged sustainers like Vlad/Swain making this build far from strong in many situations. but the fun idea is still there! and I'd be sad to see it go.

What I'd like to see with Skar:

Things, while also to be better considered an effective laner, right now sometimes people would just want to pre-report me because I called Skar mid or top and I'm considered a troll(then I dominate and flip games), just cause the logic behind it is not common and not always easy to pull, I think a few fixes to E's clunkiness would make people acknowledge him more as a lane champ too again with more build variations. while I think changing E to give AS rather than heal is a cool idea, it'll make lane Skarner a non existent pick. cause the heal is his best means to sustain in lane being a much easily harassed melee champ.

What I'd propose:

Passive: Same, it's the part of skar that makes him a fun/strong hybrid champ.

Q: Perma slow needs to be changed to alternate but with preferably a larger AOE on the second hit and a higher slow %. this will make him feel like a bursty aoe initiator under its sec hit condition but alone he wont be able to keep a perma slow.

W: If the AP ratio goes up while base shield slightly down this would encourage to play AP Skarner and be somewhat not too squishy, and lvl 1 shield could be higher. also CD to ~16 secs doesnt seem unfair.

E: Able to cast it while moving I think would be the best way to start, jungle skar players often dont bother with lvling E at all cause when you gank you just want to run as fast as you can to Q slow or ult first, casting E feels out of the kit and is sadly left out most of the time. Also if you can cast E while using his ult(like with all his other abilities) it'd make it more awesome to lvl and then using his ult for only suppress in 1v1 would be much worth it, since you cant auto attack. Faster projectile would be a fine option to include too. whatever you do, try to keep the heal or some of it please

R: Raise its CD, with all the AS late game your ult can easily be brought back off cd shortly after a team fight. the cast time is ok, but I hope the ult can be more responsive, specially when someone goes in a bush or fog of war running around terrain, which would be quite a pleasing QoL change.

Thanks again, and sorry for the extensive long post, I hope it's not considered just as a personal rant