Phage is overpriced

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Oconnomo

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
At the end of the day - what you have there is just a weak Phage that's not worth picking up compared to a Giant's belt.

Which is basically the problem right now, even with melee vs. melee lanes - Phage is weak and not worth picking up.

This is completely divorced from the discussion that melee vs. ranged seemed skewed in lane - it's just a question of what is Phage's power level and what should it do - because making it melee only doesn't solve the old melee problems unless phage is just a weak item.

At the end of the day - what you actually want is to turn Phage into a dedicated anti-range item - which is again, a complete rework of the item that I've said we'll probably need to do.
What if you altered the slow effect to be a short range aoe centered on the user.
Ex: on auto attack you generate a frozen mist around yourself (100 unit radius?) that slows all enemies within by x% but as soon as a target leaves the mist their move speed returns to normal. This would allow some sticking power if the enemy doesn't have a movement ability or burned their movement ability to engage you. Also it would give the utility discussed in a prior response in as much as you could generate the aura around yourself to stick to/slow the champion that just dove your carry.

Or does this become too much like IBG? There wouldn't be bonus proc damage on this...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Borigrad

Senior Member

07-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
I'm fully willing to admit that I don't have the relevant information here specifically on what the state of top lane will be after 3.10 but I still want to wait and see if the problem is melee vs. ranged or if it's a specific problem of there are 5 specific ranged champions that can be run top lane that stomp every melee champion you can think of. I just haven't done the due dilligence in examining if this is a problem outside of Elise/Jayce/Kennen or if this is literally 'if you nerf them, then pick any other ranged champion and they can still beat top laners flat'
Don't worry, Elise will still be broken as hell cause you didn't change her % damage mechanic. Then when Jayce and Elise finally do get nerfed and stop being anti-melee we'll move on to Quinn and Karma top. Because it's a ranged vs melee problem cause melee itemization is **** compared to ranged.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Midknight

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hrm. Okay - I'm actually probably going to have to examine this a bit better, especially after patch 3.10 comes out with Elise.

I'm fully willing to admit that I don't have the relevant information here specifically on what the state of top lane will be after 3.10 but I still want to wait and see if the problem is melee vs. ranged or if it's a specific problem of there are 5 specific ranged champions that can be run top lane that stomp every melee champion you can think of. I just haven't done the due dilligence in examining if this is a problem outside of Elise/Jayce/Kennen or if this is literally 'if you nerf them, then pick any other ranged champion and they can still beat top laners flat'

Sorry that I've been unable to provide satisfactory answers and that you're current feeling frustrated over the state of our game - but I can't give concrete answers or actionables right now without further analysis. :x
Even with Jax's E, I get killed in the 3 or 4 seconds afterwards by Vayne by the time I hit the point I am "strongest". That is my only complaint is that damage dealing bruisers don't last long enough lategame to do their sustained damage threat. I get that Jax wins almost every 1v1, but equal skill will allow the Vayne to kite me long enough so that should I actually make it to her she can at that point face-tank me to finish the job.

In no way do I want the game to become the knee-jerk "AD carries should be optional" like others claim it should be, but I think sustained damage melee are the class that are hurting the most right now.

Which is ironic because their itemization and pattern can be the most fun to play, yet support is weaker in that regard but competitively stronger.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

thumbnail9

Senior Member

07-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hrm. Okay - I'm actually probably going to have to examine this a bit better, especially after patch 3.10 comes out with Elise.

I'm fully willing to admit that I don't have the relevant information here specifically on what the state of top lane will be after 3.10 but I still want to wait and see if the problem is melee vs. ranged or if it's a specific problem of there are 5 specific ranged champions that can be run top lane that stomp every melee champion you can think of. I just haven't done the due dilligence in examining if this is a problem outside of Elise/Jayce/Kennen or if this is literally 'if you nerf them, then pick any other ranged champion and they can still beat top laners flat'

Sorry that I've been unable to provide satisfactory answers and that you're current feeling frustrated over the state of our game - but I can't give concrete answers or actionables right now without further analysis. :x
It's going to be the exact same it is now, unless you provide a effective all in route it won't change. You load up all these ranged champions with escapes and CC and this is the result, kiting is so bad you can't kill them.

You maybe tunneling into complexity when you don't even need to. The state of the game is way different then Season 2.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Rockman

Senior Member

07-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
'if you nerf them, then pick any other ranged champion and they can still beat top laners flat'
This is more true then you think it is. You understand Ryze, that guy without escapes and a supposedly bad early game has been taken top alot nowadays right?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xypherous

Systems Designer

07-25-2013
24 of 29 Riot Posts

Quote:
In no way do I want the game to become the knee-jerk "AD carries should be optional" like others claim it should be, but I think sustained damage melee are the class that are hurting the most right now.
Complete agreement here in that sustained-AA melee are in a terrible spot.

One of the goals for S4 is to create dedicated defense/offense hybrid items that are better than just 'they steamroll everything and everyone' so we avoid the all bruisers all the time meta that we develop when we make generic defense strong enough to fight ranged.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Isysar

Senior Member

07-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hrm. Okay - I'm actually probably going to have to examine this a bit better, especially after patch 3.10 comes out with Elise.

I'm fully willing to admit that I don't have the relevant information here specifically on what the state of top lane will be after 3.10 but I still want to wait and see if the problem is melee vs. ranged or if it's a specific problem of there are 5 specific ranged champions that can be run top lane that stomp every melee champion you can think of. I just haven't done the due dilligence in examining if this is a problem outside of Elise/Jayce/Kennen or if this is literally 'if you nerf them, then pick any other ranged champion and they can still beat top laners flat'

Sorry that I've been unable to provide satisfactory answers and that you're current feeling frustrated over the state of our game - but I can't give concrete answers or actionables right now without further analysis. I know that's pretty unsatisfying as a whole but the fact that you're frustrated just means that there's more effort we can put on this front.

I'm unfortunately going to have table this until we get Jayce / Elise into line and see what happens. I suspect what will happen is characters like Quinn will simply rise to stomp top lane if you guys are correct - but that will be a definite sign that we'll have to work on early game lane defenses and options versus ranged (which honestly, would be pretty awesome to have) or plan for wide-spread ranged attack damage nerfs at early levels for S4 (which again, would be pretty awesome come to think of it).

It's kind of weird to always be continuously working in a space 3 to 6 months ahead.
THANK YOU XYPH! Thank you so much! I am just glad we're being heard. I don't mind if it takes half way into Season 4. (I'd like it sooner of course, or at the start of S4). Great discussion here with you tonight. Thank you very much.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

07-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
At the end of the day - what you have there is just a weak Phage that's not worth picking up compared to a Giant's belt.

Which is basically the problem right now, even with melee vs. melee lanes - Phage is weak and not worth picking up.

This is completely divorced from the discussion that melee vs. ranged seemed skewed in lane - it's just a question of what is Phage's power level and what should it do - because making it melee only doesn't solve the old melee problems unless phage is just a weak item.

At the end of the day - what you actually want is to turn Phage into a dedicated anti-range item - which is again, a complete rework of the item that I've said we'll probably need to do.
Have you thought of making it like Entropy without the other parts? For a short duration all of your basic attacks slow, without it being random otherwise. This allows you to still get the slow when you want it without being able to turn every trade into a kill. It also wouldn't affect other higher builds as Trinity doesn't have an active, and please keep the perma-slow on frozen mallet as that is only the reason you go for frozen mallet ever. Possibly having the cooldown able to be reduced by auto attacks on champions, or the duration extended by the same, ensures that if trades are happening occasionally the item has use, and if they are happening constantly the effectiveness is increased, but I can't just all in you after I farm a wave (gunblade, though no one that autos a lot builds it so it is rare, charges so fast on auto attack based champions. If only it wasn't outclassed by a certain bs item).


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Splendid Cake

Senior Member

07-25-2013

Oh Teemo is another ranged top that isn't a problem just due to range. His E is all kinds of broken, imo.

I think with Teemo and Vlad, the range isn't a problem because they are not melee immune. Jayce, Kennen, Elise, Ryze, Quinn, and Vayne are so difficult to stick to, and when you get on them they either have a load of escapes/self peel, or are tanky.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tyrannus0

Recruiter

07-25-2013

So why is it so hard to just get some AD and health on the same item for early game/