A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Madness Heroes

Junior Member

07-21-2013

When an opponent has the max 'Rengar's chosen prey' stacks, allow him to leap to them (and only those with the stacks) as if he were in brush. Rengar's jump is arguably the most defining ability in his kit. For this to be entirely useful without being overpowered, you may want to halve the strength of the damage amplification, but double the amount of stacks. Honestly, I'm feeling 5 stacks would be appropriate - enough time for people to disengage, but also enough time to punish those who tried to fight back.


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Xelnath

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Systems Designer

07-21-2013
35 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dunkmaster View Post
Hey could a Rioter answer this?

Due to Rengar's 0 counterplay (currently) yet Evelynn was given a detection radius, TF has an overhead warning, Nocturne's DAAARRKKNESSS and lights out on the map.

Why was Rengar an exception to these rules? Was he designed that far back before Nocturne, Evelynn's rework happened?

Did you fear this during his creation process?

Why did you give him an assassin ultimate when you designed him to be another tanky dps?

Also one last question - Similar with Elise, did you not get much time to test him properly before realising after his release how broken his kit is?
While we're pretty good at what we do, we're not omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. If you are one of those three, please contact me. I have some stocks I'd like you to look at.

To get serious for a second, Evelynn hadn't been reworked yet when Rengar was in development. We hadn't fully jettisoned the "stealthed until I hit you" model for Eve. By comparison, Rengar looked healthier. I'm afraid I wasn't here for the details though. I'm still new here.


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The Dunkmaster

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xelnath View Post
While we're pretty good at what we do, we're not omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. If you are one of those three, please contact me. I have some stocks I'd like you to look at.

To get serious for a second, Evelynn hadn't been reworked yet when Rengar was in development. We hadn't fully jettisoned the "stealthed until I hit you" model for Eve. By comparison, Rengar looked healthier. I'm afraid I wasn't here for the details though. I'm still new here.
3 big words


EDIT - Ooh you edited the post, thanks for the information also.

Do you think his passive is healthy for the game? I mean, it fits him well thematically and for what he's meant to do, but I feel like he needs something else, when I play him I feel like pre-6 i'm the most terrifying thing to face in the jungle, although out of the jungle i'm a sitting duck.

"Oh Rengar might be in the brush, not gonna go near it incase I die"
This creates a scary psychological effect but also due to how powerful and spammable his passive is in the brush if you were to buff it, the passive would definitely be too strong.

My idea is - When out of enemy vision, he gains a % more movement speed. My only negative opinion on this would be how the passive could be used to detect wards (If it's warded you will not gain the bonus MS)

If not that, his E could use a range buff/cooldown reduction due to how useless I feel chasing someone down a lane or if I lose sight of my prey. With the Q stacks of "Rengar's Chosen Prey" can this also grant vision or a blood trail so his leaping is smoother?

One more thing, I know this was removed intentionally and used to be a bug.

What do you think about re-adding Rengar's double jump as a skill maneuver? That was so fun to use although it was a bug.


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Stopkilling0

Member

07-21-2013

@Bonetooth necklace
How about at max stack his abilities generate 2 ferocity instead of 1. That a pretty good incentive to try and build the item in the first place. Gamebreaking? If you're lowering the base damage on his abilities in favor of buffs/sustain, then I don't feel like it would be.


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ChocoKelly

Senior Member

07-21-2013

So Xelnath, I think you came from Yorick thread. I thought you would summon Classick but thanks anyway for summon yourself in this thread.

Im not fine about these changes though, bad changes is bad.. Rengar's ult broken right, maybe no counterplay but why was he's nerfed too hard then? Did you guys nerfed wrong points?


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Madness Heroes

Junior Member

07-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stopkilling0 View Post
@Bonetooth necklace
How about at max stack his abilities generate 2 ferocity instead of 1. That a pretty good incentive to try and build the item in the first place. Gamebreaking? If you're lowering the base damage on his abilities in favor of buffs/sustain, then I don't feel like it would be.
But if he's underfed, then he has his super-nerfed damage with no chance of comeback, in if he's overfed, he has so much more damage than previously. This means he will stomp, or be stomped, which concludes a bad game for either Rengar, or his opponent, with little to no grey area for a game to be close, exciting, or worth dragging past 20 minutes.


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Stopkilling0

Member

07-21-2013

Its rare that you ever even get to max stacks, even if he is underfed, he's not "super nerfed". Its just if hes doing really well he can stomp. If hes at max stacks he's snowballing anyways. And, "lowering the base damage on his abilities". They will be less strong.


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-21-2013
36 of 81 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
What buggs me however, is that you and wav3 spend so much time answering the Ranters questions instead of the feedback and idea questions so many players have posted here. I for one spent four hours writing ideas on rengar and did not even get a responce to it

Could you and Wav3 possible spend more time discussing ideas instead of addressing concerns? Like E being a skillshot, BTN build paths and stats, and alternatives to his new ult?
It's 2 AM in Tenerife, and i have ~7 hours until we shuttle to the airport and begin the 20 hour trek home. I decided to stop in and see how the discussion has been going, reading the last 40 or so - big thanks to Xelnath and Wav3break for helping keep the discussion moving while i've been away and reporting how playtests seem to have gone (naturally, even i haven't seen any results yet!)

Upon my return i'd like to get a clearer update on where things are headed and prepare to clock another iteration as well as have that big 'Bruiser or Assassin?' talk that's on everyone's minds. But, as ZenonTheStoic's snores keep me from falling asleep, i'd rather use this window of insomnia to respond to your somewhat massive post. Here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NA Darklarik View Post
Part 1: The Item
My idea for it radical: Make it a starting item.
By making it a starting item, that gives rengar a unique advantage to other junglers, your not only tailoring him as a jungler but also giving him an alternative to machete and its items.

My proposition would be as follows:
1. Hunter's Neckalace/ Cost: 350 gold.
Effect: Rengar's basic attacks deal 15-20 increase magic damage to Neut monsters.
Effect: If Rengar gets a kill or assist, he gains a Trophy stack, these stacks cap at 25 and carry on to Hunter's neckalace's upgrades, but do nothing on there own.

Snipped rest of the post, feel free to check out his suggestions if my responses below don't make sense! - Scar
An interesting suggestion, but one that brings up a core question on BTN from the get-go: Why is BTN optional at all? In the case of the first question, at least, is to not force Rengar at all to play this mini-game. Many Rengar's on Live choose not to Bonetooth, simply because the upgrades are not appealing/attractive to their playstyles. My goal with our BTN Exploration is to see if we can come of with a set of upgrades that aren't as binary as 'i don't care about mini-brutalizer stats, so no please' (which is very win-more in the case of snowballing knifecats) but instead emphasize and embrace his individual strengths as a skirmisher who is very dangerous near brush and stalking isolated engagements. Ex. 'I like to force fights in the jungle and gank sidelanes and would like to become better equipped for that, so BTN is right for me'. In theory, this 'amplifier' BTN would be a more welcome addition to a Rengar's arsenal than the current 'steroid' BTN with regards to game health, but should still remain an option to respect and preserve the decision point that exists on Live - 'Is this a BTN game? When do i get it? Am i a player that enjoys engaging with the BTN gameplay?'

I think what you're attempting to accomplish here is very similar to our suggested Hunter's Machete + Long Sword + 100g = BTN Recipe, and that is increasing the flexibility for either Lane or Jungle Rengar to 'Opt-in' smoothly out of lower-cost items. While this version is certainly a boon to Jungle Rengar, (tho Lane Rengars might feel left out) the cost means that if this item is ever good to start with, you're engaging in the minigame even if you don't want to - and in the case of building/losing trophies that have no actual effect, subverting a lot of the decision of the purchase (Am i snowballing/doing well with some trophies banked? Proceed to upgrade for little cost and no risk vs Am i doing poorly? Sell item for little cost and proceed with standard jungler items) that in the end allow us to make the item unique and powerful. By keeping variance a factor, we ensure that BTN's effects can be strong simply because they aren't a common occurrence like hitting Rank 5 of a spell or Level 18 is.

As for your Offensive/Defensive/Utility suggestions, we then have to go back to the purpose of BTN and what, in the end, we want Rengar to look like as a champion. Fighter or Assassin, he's a damage-dealer at heart and that will be his primary reason for finding a home on a team. Would a Defensive upgrade for BTN ever feel 'fair' on a champion who's intended function is damage? Would it feel cool, or aspirational? In my personal opinion at the very least, i see Bonetooth as the utility belt - as he becomes more and more successful in his hunts, he hunts better. More efficiently. These are why ideas we've discussed such as 'Rengar gains X% MS out of combat; doubled in brush' and the Leap Range that's on Live really excite me - they don't give him more damage. They give him more options. He's honing his craft. Now, this isn't to say that BTN can't provide Defensive or Offensive bonuses - but i'd argue that while 'Taking Less Damage', 'Dealing More Damage', and 'Conditionally Moving Faster/Leaping More' might all net you a kill, the last one of those three would really give you those strong feelings of 'I really outplayed my opponent/contextually read and reacted to the situation' that make you feel skilled. Big wins for playing against case too, imo - being outplayed can give you something to analyze and learn from, being out-statted just says 'you're dumb for having fought there' and often leads to feeling helpless.

I'm getting pretty tired as this took quiiiiiiiiiiite a long time to write up, but i hope even a response to half of your 4 hour post is useful! I'll be sure to muse a bit more on Rengar and give my thoughts as well as reports on his process as soon as i'm back stateside.

So to you, Darklarik and everyone that's posted - thanks for your continued input. Every day i come to this thread i have more and more to think about. Gonna pass out and prepare myself for 20 hours of international travel, goodnight y'all


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AncientTl

Junior Member

07-21-2013

Ideas for Rengar changes:
I know rengars q damage is too high at early levels but what if you turned his q damage into bonus ad but buff the base damage and the bonus ad ratio but still have the attack speed?

For rengars w i dont think the heal and armour and mr bonus really suits the kind of champion he is but what if you turned that it into ad and give him maybe a damage buff for 3 seconds?

And finally his ultimate this was just an idea but what if rengar had evelyns passive on his r but instead of mana regen why not enable him to leap? and when activated he is granted bonus % movespeed while still having the 'reveal' and ferocity recharge? It might be a little op on second thought but it was just some ideas...


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

07-21-2013

Scarizard, all I ask is that you keep Dominion in mind. If the hunters machete passive becomes any significant portion of the item, you've suddenly screwed Dominion players out of wanting to buy it.