A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Fishywtf

Member

07-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flesh Snorkel View Post
This circle-jerk is cute. When are you going to post your math?
Level 5 Q @ 125 dmg = 150+(100% AD)
Plug in 125 AD
150+(100AD) = 275

Level 5 E @ 125 dmg = 240+(70% AD)
Plug in 125 AD
240+(87.5 AD) = 327.5

From here it seems too look like the bola, E, is better. Now lets see what happens when you add in double cast.

Level 5 Q @ 125 dmg = 275
Level 5 Q2 @ 125 dmg = 400
Total = 675

Level 5 E @ 125 dmg = 327.5
Level 5 E2 @ 125 dmg = 327.5
Total = 655

Do you see the difference now? This is only with 125 AD. Lets plug in 250 AD, because that's about minimum you will achieve each game and we'll also use double cast on this. Also 250 AD is bit above mid game.

Level 5 Q @ 250 dmg = 400
Level 5 Q2 @ 250 dmg = 650
Total = 1,050

Level 5 E @ 250 dmg = 415
Level 5 E2 @ 250 dmg = 415
Total = 830

Look at the gap. This is what you get when you're about mid game double casting level 5 bola: you lose 220 extra damage. So now lets look into triple Q with level 1 Q vs triple Q level 1 E. This is minimum effort to combo. Not taking into account W as it is just a constant.

4 Ferocity -> Gain 1 Ferocity giving you 5 total, now you activate empowered Q -> and you wait till you gain the leftover Ferocities -> Leap in with the pre-activated empowered Q -> Q with normal Q -> You have 5 Ferocity now -> Empowered Q again -> Now you E

Here is damage flow considering you have from above the 250 AD given. We'll be using this ability sequence. Q2 + Q + Q2 + E

Level 5Q + Level 1E
650 + 400 + 650 + (60+(0.7*250)) =
Total Dmg Output= 1,935

Level 1Q + Level 5E
(30+(2*250)) + (30+(1*250)) + (30+(2*250)) + 415
Total Dmg Output = 1,755

These damage do not take into account Q's attack speed steroids and or the slows. This is a calculation of upfront burst damage without W. I'm not calculating W into both formulas because it's a constant. So in the results above, listening to FLESH SNORKEL you lose out on potential damages. Sometimes with Rengar you can exceed 300 AD allowing for a higher damage gap when having Q @ level 5 and E @ level 1. But at level 18 all the numbers will stay the same but games usually end before reaching 18 so.... choose one or the other.

This is about pure damage with no extra benefits added to.

180 less damage could mean life or death for ADC. Who's gonna cry when someone else is able to ks that 180 HP ADC? Who's going to cry/die chasing/rage when that 180 HP ADC escapes?
Numbers are numbers but which numbers allows you to kill faster is the real question here.


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Switchzy

Junior Member

07-19-2013

Posting this on behalf of a mate (an avid Rengar player), since he is unable to access the forums at the moment.

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Due to these changes to Rengar I believe there can be some interesting changes implemented into his exclusive item: Bonetooth Necklace.
I agree with the idea of giving him more utility based additions per stack and I have some suggestions for what these could be.
For every three or four stacks, give his abilities little buffs (similar to Kha'zix's evolutions).


Examples:

4 Stacks- Rengar's Q has a bleeding effect doing % health damage over time. With a ferocity bonus his Q bleed will do additional damage and reveal the enemy target for a short period of time.

8 Stacks- Rengars W will grant resistances/buffs to friendly units in the area of the cast. With a ferocity bonus his W will heal the friendly units around him for a % of his own heal (and grant resistances/buffs).

12 Stacks- Rengar's E will deal an additional AoE slow around the target which is weaker than the target's slow. With a ferocity bonus his E will stun the target instead of rooting them (same duration as root).

16 Stacks- Rengar's Ultimate will grant him additional increasing movement speed over its duration. Additionally he will be passively granted extra range on his leaps.


These are the sort of things I'd be pleased to see on the Bonetooth Necklace. I understand some of these buffs might be too strong and could do with some alteration.
After having seen the 'Q train' idea (which sounds very appealing), I thought maybe the Q upgrade could be a low % slow rather than a bleed, to help him stick to his opponents and get his combos off.
I've also considered that maybe the stack buffs should go for empowered abilities alone and maybe get additional buffs like MS and Tenacity along the way.


Regardless, I want to see the Bonetooth Necklace maintain its 'core item' state and I'd still like to be able to build him full assassin with tons of damage.
I hope you read this and maybe take some ideas from it to keep Rengar strong and viable.


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Wav3Break

Riot Intern
Quality Assurance

07-20-2013
18 of 81 Riot Posts

Hey everyone, I just wanted to update you guys with my findings in implementing and initial testing the iteration with the Q train/Empowered Savagery generating/refunding 3 ferocity points on hit.

There is still some mixed internal feedback with how the overall play pattern feels but I think it is generally trending towards a positive direction. As you guys can probably discern, since Empowered Savagery is giving you so much ferocity as a means for you to start up another combo chain of Empowered Savagery(s) or accessing your other empowered abilities, the natural damage of Rengar's Empowered Savagery has gone down by quite a bit. In return, the sheer amount of Empowered Savagery casts you can throw out within a limited amount of time has sky rocketed. #KnifeCatBaby.

In order to supplement this play style, I've added a mechanic such that multiple Empowered Savagery casts on the same target will mark the target as "Rengar's Chosen Prey" and amp the damage of consecutive Empowered Savagery casts on them. Currently this debuff caps at 2 stacks and it will give Rengar a more fighter based play pattern because in drawn out fights the Rengar player will have to manage this debuff as well as make on the fly decision making of whether or not he should break out of his combo to access his Empowered Battle Roar or Empowered Bola Strike.

Despite this change supplementing a more Fighter-ish Rengar, he is still able to dish out a lot of damage on enemy squishies in a very short time period, preserving his assassin feel. What I am hoping this change does (and I'll be able to confidently say if it does with more testing) is that Rengar can still be opportunistic and try to assassinate enemy squishies, but instead of all his damage being dished out in a 1-2 second window, it will happen in a 3-4 second window where the initial burst is around 70-80% of what his kill combo looks like and his second wave of burst comes a tad bit after.

Additionally, due to this triple ferocity gain on Empowered Savagery, I had to tune some of his other numbers around with Battle Roar and Bola Strike. These numbers are still very subject to change but I want to let you guys know that they will definitely change to reflect this system. Regarding my questions on Bola Strike last post: it feels like it will still remain a targeted ability for now.

I'll be doing more work on polishing the rest of his changes over the weekend and will hopefully be able to give you guys a confident answer with Scarizard as to whether or not triple Ferocity gaining on Empowered Savagery tested well sometime next week!

P.S. An update on Bone Tooth Necklace - I've been reading a lot of the suggestions and they have all been very inspiring. I just want to reiterate the direction we are going with this item: it is an item that Rengar should not feel pressured to buy in every game, but rather an item that gives Rengar players who want to consciously play the "mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat" play style a means of being even more "mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat." That being said, some ideas surrounding Bone Tooth Necklace giving team utility on empowered abilities or team utility in general sound interesting since your team helps you stack it anyways. Now instead of being a solo hunter your team can also be part of the hunting pack ?

Anyways, awesome ideas guys, keep them coming! Remember things are still subject to change.


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CupcakeNinja

Junior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Hey everyone, I just wanted to update you guys with my findings in implementing and initial testing the iteration with the Q train/Empowered Savagery generating/refunding 3 ferocity points on hit.

There is still some mixed internal feedback with how the overall play pattern feels but I think it is generally trending towards a positive direction. As you guys can probably discern, since Empowered Savagery is giving you so much ferocity as a means for you to start up another combo chain of Empowered Savagery(s) or accessing your other empowered abilities, the natural damage of Rengar's Empowered Savagery has gone down by quite a bit. In return, the sheer amount of Empowered Savagery casts you can throw out within a limited amount of time has sky rocketed. #KnifeCatBaby.

In order to supplement this play style, I've added a mechanic such that multiple Empowered Savagery casts on the same target will mark the target as "Rengar's Chosen Prey" and amp the damage of consecutive Empowered Savagery casts on them. Currently this debuff caps at 2 stacks and it will give Rengar a more fighter based play pattern because in drawn out fights the Rengar player will have to manage this debuff as well as make on the fly decision making of whether or not he should break out of his combo to access his Empowered Battle Roar or Empowered Bola Strike.

Despite this change supplementing a more Fighter-ish Rengar, he is still able to dish out a lot of damage on enemy squishies in a very short time period, preserving his assassin feel. What I am hoping this change does (and I'll be able to confidently say if it does with more testing) is that Rengar can still be opportunistic and try to assassinate enemy squishies, but instead of all his damage being dished out in a 1-2 second window, it will happen in a 3-4 second window where the initial burst is around 70-80% of what his kill combo looks like and his second wave of burst comes a tad bit after.

Additionally, due to this triple ferocity gain on Empowered Savagery, I had to tune some of his other numbers around with Battle Roar and Bola Strike. These numbers are still very subject to change but I want to let you guys know that they will definitely change to reflect this system. Regarding my questions on Bola Strike last post: it feels like it will still remain a targeted ability for now.

I'll be doing more work on polishing the rest of his changes over the weekend and will hopefully be able to give you guys a confident answer with Scarizard as to whether or not triple Ferocity gaining on Empowered Savagery tested well sometime next week!

P.S. An update on Bone Tooth Necklace - I've been reading a lot of the suggestions and they have all been very inspiring. I just want to reiterate the direction we are going with this item: it is an item that Rengar should not feel pressured to buy in every game, but rather an item that gives Rengar players who want to consciously play the "mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat" play style a means of being even more "mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat." That being said, some ideas surrounding Bone Tooth Necklace giving team utility on empowered abilities or team utility in general sound interesting since your team helps you stack it anyways. Now instead of being a solo hunter your team can also be part of the hunting pack ?

Anyways, awesome ideas guys, keep them coming! Remember things are still subject to change.
You sir are awesome.


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nightmarex98

Senior Member

07-20-2013

q weaker, empower q weaker but gives extra ferocity? but because of the extra emp q you might pull out you might need to nerf bola and battle roar. gross 3 nerfs but bone tooth having team wide stuff is cool.the mark on target sounds nice too, are you guys giving him better base stats so he can live longer then 1-2 second's to get the combo out? cuz its sounds like he'll put out pitiful damage early


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Gospel Noctis

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Well here comes the question I always feel the need to ask when talking about assassins and lowered burst. Sure, you make them do less damage upfront and require them to stay and fight longer, but does he really have the tools to survive long enough to do that damage? Are his base numbers high enough that he can afford to build defensive items quickly so he doesn't instantly die when he gets close enough and stays close enough to do meaningful damage?


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nightmarex98

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gospel Noctis View Post
Well here comes the question I always feel the need to ask when talking about assassins and lowered burst. Sure, you make them do less damage upfront and require them to stay and fight longer, but does he really have the tools to survive long enough to do that damage? Are his base numbers high enough that he can afford to build defensive items quickly so he doesn't instantly die when he gets close enough and stays close enough to do meaningful damage?
this^ he's really gold reliant,


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lrreversible

Junior Member

07-20-2013

One of his problems to start with was the idea of him being able to survive once succeeding (or not succeeding) in eliminating whichever target he so pleases. What exactly has been done about this? From what I've seen, there's been much talk about making him do his damage over a longer time frame, but not very much said about increasing his survivability in teamfight situations. I for one would like to still build him 'glass cannon'. So without having to build him more bruiser-ish, can we do something about him surviving after jumping on his prey?


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
1. Rengar's Empowered Savagery has gone down by quite a bit.
2. Regarding my questions on Bola Strike last post: it feels like it will still remain a targeted ability for now.

3."mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat" play style a means of being even more "mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat."

4. That being said, some ideas surrounding Bone Tooth Necklace giving team utility on empowered abilities or team utility in general sound interesting since your team helps you stack it anyways. Now instead of being a solo hunter your team can also be part of the hunting pack ?
1. Is it still powerfull enough to compensate the fact he cant use his ult in the middle of a fight?

2. >:L Dude, come on. Find a way to make it a skillshot.

3. mega-Hunter-jungle-knife-LION, show him some respect, hes gone through a lot of change, he aint suppose to be a kitten!

4. Why does it always have to be one upgrade, cant it be different types of upgrades?

PS: can you remove the damage from battle roar and either up different parts of his kit or replace the damage with some other type of steroid that befits the "going to battle" thing?


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Fishywtf

Member

07-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
P.S. An update on Bone Tooth Necklace - I've been reading a lot of the suggestions and they have all been very inspiring. I just want to reiterate the direction we are going with this item: it is an item that Rengar should not feel pressured to buy in every game, but rather an item that gives Rengar players who want to consciously play the "mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat" play style a means of being even more "mega-hunter-jungle-knife-cat." That being said, some ideas surrounding Bone Tooth Necklace giving team utility on empowered abilities or team utility in general sound interesting since your team helps you stack it anyways. Now instead of being a solo hunter your team can also be part of the hunting pack ?
No no please NO! Don't give bonetooth the ability to help teammates. Doing so will make Rengar permabanned. Why? Having an assassin with team utility is overpowered. His kit already gives the team an advantage by his Ultimate. It's basically a nocturne ult that does high damage on contact. For example if the ADC gets cc'd by support taric and jungle nautilus the game is completely over. And by giving that taric and nautilus aid with bonetooth, things will go into a handicapped mode in mere seconds; you can forget about triple Q 500% AD 1-2 seconds instagib being overpowered. All this will do is cause permaban in all champ select situations. Also by giving team stats people will build more tankier and abuse the Q train. This will be guaranteed seen in new LCS games and other main events. You will basically deadlock Rengar into the bruiser position so he can provide team utility and abuse Q train.