A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

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Foochy

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Rengar's Ult should be like TF's. Everybody on the other team should know that he is in hunt mode, but it should NOT just be a dead give away for certain size of the map. I think this would make it okay to make his ULT counterable.


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Griiffy

Member

07-17-2013

Riot -
There is a reason why there are so many players KNOWN for playing only rengar. His kit is amazing. I have never had such an amazing experience with a champ. His laning phase is hard, but if you can get that down he is so fun to play. You cannot change him without offering us a refund of him and his skin because when you do eff him up, he won't be the same. Thank you.


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Foochy

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AldoDaApache View Post
Rengar is easily my favorite champion and has been for a long time. I understand peoples frustration with him because he feels uncounterable once hes fed but to people who play him or on his team, he feels useless otherwise. I play him in the jungle only and hate playing him top so my bias towards his jungling is going to be clear. I've thought about ways to improve him since hearing he was going to be buffed and thought I would throw in some ideas to the pot to be used to ignored if even seen. I love this champion and at the end of the day only want whats best for him.

I think one way to consider tuning him is really going all the way back to the basic idea of where his inspiration comes from. He is a beastly hunter, the best there is and with the ego to show it. He should be strong, agile and cunning. Yet his current kit doesn't seem to really express that at all. I find him painfully slow, and i understand that he has an ult and the bonetooth to help him in these regards but the ult speed on gets him to the fight. I agree that his current state the ult where he has 100 percent stealth and a jump can be abused and lacks counter play, but I also feel the global announcement can really destroy his ult all together. So here is my question. If Rengar is the most fear predator, why does he need the stealth? As much as i love it, it doesn't seem to fit his ego. My idea therefore is as follows:

dump the stealth and instead give him the ability to jump once no matter where hes from. this lacks surprise but who cares? Not rengar. Instead give him some great hunting buffs. Make him actually thrilled to be hunting! maybe a 40-50 percent movement speed buff before he jumps and a 20 percent for 5 seconds after, along with increased attack damage, attack speed, tenacity, lifesteal or even just the ability to cause fear in his opponents and cause them to miss attacks, have reduced damage or be severely slowed. Obviously he cant have all of the above, those are just some ideas but if rengar truly is the feared hunter he claims to be, why does he need stealth? Why not just give him a heavy buff or debuff that makes him a present in teamfights, or but at the same time removing his ability to come out of nowhere and instagib people. Honestly this will be an uncommon idea and to be honest i'm not totally sold on it either but it could be an idea to test out and see how it works.
so you want his ult to be like Aatrox?


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Eleshakai

Senior Member

07-17-2013

I think a +movement speed when not visible to enemy team might be a cool perk for the necklace to offer. Kind of along the lines of boots of mobility, but just any time he isn't able to be seen by enemy teams. It'd also open up some strategic counter-ward play.


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Griiffy

Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleshakai View Post
I think a +movement speed when not visible to enemy team might be a cool perk for the necklace to offer. Kind of along the lines of boots of mobility, but just any time he isn't able to be seen by enemy teams. It'd also open up some strategic counter-ward play.
OP that would make it clear where wards are


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Joewwdub

Recruiter

07-17-2013

So, an ult that gives him stealth, that lets everyone know you are coming... So basically despite the invisibility you can have more stealth by not using it at all. You may as well remove the stealth and completely rework his ult.


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Eleshakai

Senior Member

07-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griiffy View Post
OP that would make it clear where wards are
At the top levels of play yes, but most people wouldn't realize what it meant - and it wouldn't inherently allow you to DO anything about those wards.. Not only that, but if it required a certain number of trophies... it wouldn't necessarily be that op.


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ScubaDivingPoop

Senior Member

07-17-2013

I'm interested in the reworked Ferocity Q's damage at later level 11+ compared to Lives ferocity Q.

My biggest problem with rengar is that he cant stick onto someone if you dont kill them right off. Almost all adc's have some sort of escape and provided with help from their support or teammate, sustained damage just wouldn't do it. Couple that with enemies aware of your presence this rework is looking pretty grim. Rengar is an AD caster, without his abilities hes pretty much worthless and you mentioned that the AS bonus is removed from regular Q and reduced from the ferocity Q.

Please make his Bola slow not decay.

Also have you guys fixed his Q locking up? It still happens and when it does happen in a ranked game in the middle of a team fight its a fcking disaster


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Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-18-2013
16 of 81 Riot Posts

So i'm finishing up packing and heading to bed before my flight in the morning (For those of you who missed the previous post, i'm heading the Spain for the EU Pro Player conference for a couple of days) but wanted to let you guys know about the iteration we just clocked - while i won't be around for playtests on thursday or friday, Wav3break will be tuning numbers and driving it while i'm gone.

I'll update the original post as well, but the changes look something like:

Savagery
- Attack Speed reinstated, -slight- buff to %AS, -slight- nerf to base damage.

Empowered Savagery
- In addition to dealing bonus damage, grants Rengar 3 Ferocity.

So what does this mean? Basically, Rengar's Empowered Savagery sets him up for a potential Ryze-like spell chain. Feedback from this thread has been that (Triple Q or no), you guys really like stabbing. With this setup, you can Q2 -> Q, W, -> Q2, E. Q ->Q2 again, with a higher degree of Attack Speed than before. I've played around with the changes a bit with a few people and i have to say it looks pretty awesome tbh. You lie in wait, ready for the kill....and then you proceed to maul your target's face off.

Another cool thing about the 'Q-Train' as Volty calls it, is that you can end the cycle at any point with Empowered Battle Roar or Emp. Bola strike and call it a day, winning trades or flatly disengaging. We still need to see what this does in laning situations, but from i can tell it drastically increases his engagement windows but highly rewards him for 'keeping up' his combos - all while hacking away like a madman.

I suspect it will be slightly OP with this version, but we can always tune. One idea we had is to slightly lower the damage further of Empowered Savagery, but instead have it apply a debuff making your next Emp. Savagery deal 50% more damage (probably only stacks 3 times?). This option feels unnecessary at -this- point, but can proceed to it if his laning is obnoxious but we like the pattern of Q2. Also drives home a lot of the 'single-target mauling predator' feel if you can single out your prey and make their lives hell.

Feeling more confident about this version, but everything is always subject to change. Could possibly see Bola's slow% being increased to accomodate Rengar's knifing around if he's having too much trouble gettin' to the folks he needs. Looking into using Battle Roar as a slot to provide a mechanic that helps him survive endgame without making his solo/dueling cases feel unbeatable - some of you guys have suggested a Wukong-like 'Less defense, but stacking with nearby targets' and i'd like to try it and see how it goes.

Even to those who think i'm not listening - your voices not going unheard. Thanks again for all of your posts, y'all.

EDIT BECAUSE DOUBLEPOSTING IS TACKY -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleshakai View Post
I think a +movement speed when not visible to enemy team might be a cool perk for the necklace to offer. Kind of along the lines of boots of mobility, but just any time he isn't able to be seen by enemy teams. It'd also open up some strategic counter-ward play.
Catching this before i leave - i think something like this sounds really cool. I know i mentioned earlier that we were looking at +MS% in brush. What do people think about similar version?

'Rengar gains X movement speed while not visible to the enemy team (or out of combat). This bonus is doubled while Rengar is in brush.' ?

A lot of the bonetooth ideas specifically have been pretty interesting - Wav3break's heavy lifting is going to be focused on BTN, but i'll make sure to keep passing these along.


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NA Darklarik

Senior Member

07-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
So i'm finishing up packing and heading to bed before my flight in the morning (For those of you who missed the previous post, i'm heading the Spain for the EU Pro Player conference for a couple of days) but wanted to let you guys know about the iteration we just clocked - while i won't be around for playtests on thursday or friday, Wav3break will be tuning numbers and driving it while i'm gone.

I'll update the original post as well, but the changes look something like:

Savagery
- Attack Speed reinstated, -slight- buff to %AS, -slight- nerf to base damage.

Empowered Savagery
- In addition to dealing bonus damage, grants Rengar 3 Ferocity.


So what does this mean? Basically, Rengar's Empowered Savagery sets him up for a potential Ryze-like spell chain. Feedback from this thread has been that (Triple Q or no), you guys really like stabbing. With this setup, you can Q2 -> Q, W, -> Q2, E. Q ->Q2 again, with a higher degree of Attack Speed than before. I've played around with the changes a bit with a few people and i have to say it looks pretty awesome tbh. You lie in wait, ready for the kill....and then you proceed to maul your target's face off.




'Rengar gains X movement speed while not visible to the enemy team (or out of combat). This bonus is doubled while Rengar is in brush.' ?


A lot of the bonetooth ideas specifically have been pretty interesting - Wav3break's heavy lifting is going to be focused on BTN, but i'll make sure to keep passing these along.
YES YES YES YES YEsS YES YES YES YES