A Wild Knifecat Appears! (Rengar Discussion)

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MostlySilent

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-16-2013

He can still triple Q, right?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ColdMiller

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Also if reducing duration stealth maybe we can lower the delay in retrospect so he doesnt have to wait as long to utilize its reduced duration.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SanSarra

Senior Member

07-16-2013

My post top of page 11 you should read, about bonetooth.

Also, we could make Rengar do footsteps visible but not visible on minimap when he uses his ultimate, so the ultimate can last longer.

You'll see him coming into TF probably, but he can't go alone, gib, and die now, he has to be smart about when he enters the TF. Also for ganks, good vision allows to see Rengar coming (FOOTSTEPS ZOMG RUN), without really crippling the "hunting side" of said Rengar :3. Plus, you can see steps, but only can target rengar if you have truesight


He's not a hunter right now, he's more of a Bee, he stings hard but dies afterwards, while he should track his foes, and hunt them down.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SheepPunk

Junior Member

07-16-2013

Compilation of what I've seen so far and looks good:

Yes, people want him to be played in the jungle.

Necklace with upgrades/evolutions like Kha'zix (maybe based on stacks?)

The W should give movespeed and could possibly be an offensive stat boost (AD, ARM Pen, AS)

The E should be a skillshot with a decent radius and probably higher range

Edit: Maybe the necklace could be somewhat like Eleisa's miracle that doesn't take up an item slot after several levels or after accomplishing a certain thing (achieving this many kills, etc.)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dues Pater

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Let me clarify:

Currently Rengar functions/"performs greatest" as an Assasin/Split pusher. This leads to an incredibly disjointed play pattern as an average game progresses because his kit only offers him one avenue of getting into a late game team fight away from the jungle, his ultimate.

Adding on the fact that he is currently a long duration true stealth character with burst(a play pattern that is not really healthy for the game, eg pre-rework Evelynn...), we feel that Rengar exacerbates this problem with his incredible target selection through his ultimate. Thus an already toxic play pattern becomes even more toxic and further fuels the "feast or famine" scenario that live Rengar currently faces. If Rengar is ahead, he becomes a god who can insta-gib and knife-cat any enemy of his choosing. If Rengar is behind he feels incredibly useless in team fights because even though he can choose his target to go on, his only purpose as an all in melee "assassin" cannot be fulfilled.

The other problem that exists is in the fact that Rengar always has the backup option of split pushing with a true stealth escape tool and attack speed steroid to crush buildings. This pattern is NOT something we want to promote but inevitably exists due to the nature of his kit. Split pushing is a viable strategy and IT IS OK for Rengar to split push, but he should not be able to abuse his ultimate so easily to escape the stickiest of situations WHILST having his amazing structure killing potential.

With that out of the way, we don't necessarily want to make Rengar into a champion like Renekton(who still has pretty decent burst damage at level 2 mind you) but we do feel his current burst potential, especially at earlier levels is simply too high. It does not take a lot of number crunching to notice that Rengar's mindless level 2 burst combo can deal ~60-70% of the average level 2 champions health pool.

The fact is, on a kit with reset mechanics like Rengar, burst will always exist early on and the challenge for us is to tune it into something healthy/balanced/counter-playable. You should rest easy, Rengar will always be able to knife-cat surprise stab people at stages of the game, we just want to make sure your knife-catting experience isn't unfair or too limiting in later stages of the game.

TL'DR: Assassin/burst character with long duration true stealth = bad. Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your AD-Carry and die right after/I can only kill your AD-Carry and am useless to my team if I fail."
your talking about more counter play to rengar but what about the things he needs. He should be like a assassin/bruiser depending on how you build him. If you want to make champions kit more healthier to others why don't you work on teemo or even kayle.

There's pretty much no counter play vs kayle top lane. I guess if kayle top lane started getting attention in elo you would probably be posing a thread discussing possible changes for kayle am i right?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Shiken

Senior Member

07-16-2013

IMO I don't think Rengar should be a sustained damage fighter i see him as a "predator" who pounces out of no where and assassinates and not some one who jumps on you and fights you for the next 10 seconds i think that he should stay he is on the live servers but i do feel that if you want to make Rengar jungle more powerful and viable that his w should possibly lower the resistances on jungle creeps or more similar to volibears roar as Rengar seems very weak in the jungle.

Also about i dont think that giving players the information that Rengar provides too much counterplay as if im the enemy caitlyn and i see an icon that he has ulted i could simply stand atop a trap and simply cancel his ult. if your rengar and u ult trying to catch out the straggler adc that roamed to far from the pack they can simply just group together giving no real chance for your ult being used effectively. Also i dont see how rengars ult can be used for mind games against enemies

Note:im a fan of the current rengar and i don't think that and complete change in play style (from an assassin to a sustaied fighter like jax) should be done but rather a few buffs towards his jungling and maybe a slight damage increase in his e for situation where he needs to max it to farm effectively in lane and come out a little better in early trades


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Comedian

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
snip
Could you comment on my suggestion to make it into a consumable please, I would like to know how difficult that would be to balance and if that would put Rengar in too strong of a spot. I'm fairly interested in the balance of Rengar as he's easily one of my favourite chamions!!



heres that quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comedian View Post
I feel like bonetooth necklace should be similar to Elisa's miracle in the sense where it gets consumed at a certain point. Maybe set to either obtaining max stacks or getting to max level depending on which happens first. This allows to remove the attack damage stat for balancing around the effects while keeping it slot efficient by having it be consumed (maybe also increase price to 1000

(leveling up 4/5 times seems like an appropriate number)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MobiIe Ward

Senior Member

07-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wav3Break View Post
Let me clarify:

Currently Rengar functions/"performs greatest" as an Assasin/Split pusher. This leads to an incredibly disjointed play pattern as an average game progresses because his kit only offers him one avenue of getting into a late game team fight away from the jungle, his ultimate.

Adding on the fact that he is currently a long duration true stealth character with burst(a play pattern that is not really healthy for the game, eg pre-rework Evelynn...), we feel that Rengar exacerbates this problem with his incredible target selection through his ultimate. Thus an already toxic play pattern becomes even more toxic and further fuels the "feast or famine" scenario that live Rengar currently faces. If Rengar is ahead, he becomes a god who can insta-gib and knife-cat any enemy of his choosing. If Rengar is behind he feels incredibly useless in team fights because even though he can choose his target to go on, his only purpose as an all in melee "assassin" cannot be fulfilled.

The other problem that exists is in the fact that Rengar always has the backup option of split pushing with a true stealth escape tool and attack speed steroid to crush buildings. This pattern is NOT something we want to promote but inevitably exists due to the nature of his kit. Split pushing is a viable strategy and IT IS OK for Rengar to split push, but he should not be able to abuse his ultimate so easily to escape the stickiest of situations WHILST having his amazing structure killing potential.

With that out of the way, we don't necessarily want to make Rengar into a champion like Renekton(who still has pretty decent burst damage at level 2 mind you) but we do feel his current burst potential, especially at earlier levels is simply too high. It does not take a lot of number crunching to notice that Rengar's mindless level 2 burst combo can deal ~60-70% of the average level 2 champions health pool.

The fact is, on a kit with reset mechanics like Rengar, burst will always exist early on and the challenge for us is to tune it into something healthy/balanced/counter-playable. You should rest easy, Rengar will always be able to knife-cat surprise stab people at stages of the game, we just want to make sure your knife-catting experience isn't unfair or too limiting in later stages of the game.

TL'DR: Assassin/burst character with long duration true stealth = bad. Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your AD-Carry and die right after/I can only kill your AD-Carry and am useless to my team if I fail."
You're forgetting to mention that all that can be countered by good awareness and good positioning by the enemy team. All that stuff you mentioned can also be countered by a good support. You obviously don't know enough about Rengar if you think you're supposed to kill the adc when they are in the middle of their team and die. He's also not useless in a teamfight after he uses his ult. Through good positioning you can still teamfight.

My point is Rengar has his pros and cons. And as a Rengar main I suggest you ask someone else to work on this rework for you or play Rengar alot so you know what you're talking about.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Scarizard

Live Balance Designer

07-16-2013
5 of 81 Riot Posts

Just updated the OP with the changes that are currently testing. Numbers excluded as they're subject to change.

Tried an iteration where Savagery, in lieu of Attack Speed instead awarded a bonus point of Ferocity to Rengar when he used it on targets below 50% health. I liked how it played out, but wasn't noticeable enough and in most cases it was just 'Rengar is getting more 5 points than usual for doing things he'd do anyways' - i'd like to see some form of this return somewhere on the Bonetooth if at all possible, and we're investigating cool ways to make that happen.

All of his Ferocity Effects not minding what you were previously leveling has made some cool cases in lane where you'll max W/E but still choose Q - whereas on Live it's just 'what is the thing i am leveling? Doublecast that for crazy spike damage' - in response we've upped the damage on these abilities to make them singularly better for their regular use-cases.

W's current iteration is trying something i heard from forumgoers the last time Classick was discussing his changes that also helps him jungle. My vision for Battle Roar if it needs to have a defensive component is to make it less good against every thing and give it a distinct use-case. Currently running with Doran's shield passive for all Physical Damage. This makes him much more susceptible to magic damage and mage CC + Burst combos, but keeps him strong vs those carries he loves to chew on, as well as keeping those jungle mobs honest. I'm not super attached to it, but it's definitely fulfilling my goals as of now.

R's runspeed being upped right now really allows it to be used for strategic set ups, but is probably stronger than a character like this needs at rank 1. While revealing him earlier might sound like a super nerf, in practice it's shown that it's not actually enough to stop people from feeling totally jumped. The VO playing when he ults though has been testing -very- well both as/against and really strikes fear into enemies. What would you guys feel about Global VO when Rengar Ults, like Nocturne?

Anyways, i've gotten a lot of good ideas from you guys tonight that i want to think on. I'm not gonna pass out just yet so i'll be around for a bit longer, but my Safari Zone timer's runnin' out


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

nomadd

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-16-2013

I'm not entirely sure that I'd say that Rengar's "playstyle" is a fit for the jungle - his kit has some of the right tools - auto attack reset and a defensive steroid, however, I don't particularly think that his current iteration works in the jungle. One of the big issues that I've personally had with Rengar when jungling is managing Ferocity while still efficiently clearing camps. You essentially have to be full on Ferocity to effectively gank, or have Thrill of the Hunt up. A possible solution to this may be to allow the use of skills normally when full on Ferocity, through a toggle, allowing you to manage the resource, without neutering the speed of your clear. I personally think the biggest reason people feel that Rengar belongs in the jungle has more to do with his design aesthetically as well as his lore, and the fact that he now gets bullied out of lane without much contest, giving him no other home but among the monsters.

Battle Roar - that's a tough one to balance. A thought that I had for this would be something along the lines of: Rengar gains X amount of damage reduction for Y attacks. With Ferocity: damage reduction or number of attacks (or both) increased. The problem with armor/mr (in my opinion) are diminishing returns, as well as the exceptional potency of Last Whisper/Void Staff. The problem with the heal has been addressed with such prejudice that it is nearly moot.

I would like to see the Bonetooth Necklace be totally wiped of stats, in favor of interesting improvements to Rengar's kit per stack (as opposed to at a milestone). This would probably mean lowering the total number of stacks. I also think the effects should be permanent once you obtain them, ie, you get enough stacks for effect X, that effect is permanently unlocked for the duration of the game, but you can still lose stacks, increasing the gap at which your next effect unlocks.